Township Council Minutes
March 5, 2002
This Special Public Meeting of the Mount Olive Township
Council was called to order at 7:30pm by Council President
Scapicchio with the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.
MOMENT OF REFLECTION
President Scapicchio: To continue with the policy that
this Council has begun from the beginning of this year we
would like to just ask everyone to share with us a moment
of reflection in recognition of the men and women that fight
terrorism around the world.
According to the Open Public Meetings Act, adequate Notice
of this Meeting has been given to the Mt. Olive Chronicle
and the Morristown Daily Record. Notice has been posted
at in the Municipal Building, 204 Flanders-Drakestown Road,
Mt. Olive Township, New Jersey, and notices were sent to
those requesting the same.
ROLL CALL: Present: Mr. Guenther, Mr. Greenbaum, Mrs. Miller,
Mr. Perkins, Mr. Rattner, Mr. Spino, Mr. Scapicchio
PUBLIC COMMENT PERIOD
President Scapicchio: We have two Public Comment sections
at our Public Meetings. We will now open the floor for Public
Comment for the first portion of this meeting. There are
other items on this agenda in reference to Turkey Brook
that everyone in the Public will have an opportunity to
speak specifically on. This is a general open session for
comments referenced to anything. Anyone from the Public
have any comment? Seeing none, we will close the first portion
of the public comment period.
Mayor Licitra: None at this time.
ORDINANCES FOR FIRST READING
Ord. #10-2002 Bond Ordinance Providing a Supplemental Appropriation
of $756,189 for Additional Park Improvements to Turkey Brook
Park in and by the Township of Mount Olive, In the County
of Morris (Supplemental Appropriation for Turkey Brook Park)
Mr. Rattner moved that Ord. #10-2002 be introduced by Title
and Passed on First Reading and that a meeting be held on
March 26, 2002. Mr. Spino seconded that motion.
President Scapicchio: Any Council Discussion?
Mr. Rattner: I have one question. This is more of a legal
question, on the bond ordinance in section 1A it talks about
the contribution from the Soccer Club. We are already appropriating
that money, if we haven't got an agreement how do we appropriate
or add that in to our capital funds if we don't have it?
I am sure if we are going to have it within the two or three
weeks based on some of the correspondence I have seen back
Mr. Dorsey: This is First Reading, it truly would have
to be in the bag by March 26, 2002 before the ordinance
can have any effect.
Mr. Rattner: Does that mean we have to have the funds otherwise
we could not do it?
Mr. Dorsey: Yes or the Ordinance is not consistent with
President Scapicchio: Mr. Rattner, I sent to each Council
Member, I have had several discussions with Peter Jaran,
President of the Mt. Olive Soccer Club and Mayor Licitra.
We have language in a proposed agreement that I have sent
everyone. Everyone should have had an opportunity to review
that, including Mr. Dorsey. I think we are very close unless
there are some comments that I am not aware of from any
of the Council.
Mr. Rattner: I don't have any problems with the verbage
it is more from.
President Scapicchio: Hold on a second Steve.
Mr. Rattner: I don't have to have that resolved now. The
big concern I have is that we have been working with this
for a year and a half and we have not been able to come
to an agreement. If I remember, from over the past not just
the recent memos, it was because certain terms in there
especially from the Councils' standpoint cannot deliver
because we cannot commit future Councils to a lot of the
terms they have put in there, so I just wanted to make sure
that we are really going to have that agreement and also
I want to be able, that is why I want to ask later on for
the two resolutions to move ahead and start construction
even if we don't get that in time to make everything move.
President Scapicchio: After a discussion between the Mayor,
Peter Jaran and myself there was a revised memorandum of
understanding that was sent off to everybody. Mr. Dorsey's
main concern is that there was some language within that
Mr. Dorsey: This issue has been addressed because now in
Section 8 implementation, it says this "grants between
the Township MOSC will be arbitrated utilizing a committee
consisting to represent" etc. It contains an arbitration
President Scapicchio: This is for introduction, lets have
Mr. Dorsey read the complete document to give us any comments
back, at least I am of the opinion and I believe the Mayor
is and we are real close to signing an agreement with the
Mayor Licitra: I am not going to grandstand too many people
that we have too much to do tonight. I'll say what I said
President Scapicchio: Is the representation that I made
Mayor Licitra: Absolutely. As long as Peter has the letter.
ROLL CALL: Passed Unanimously.
RESOLUTIONS NON CONSENT
1. Resolution Re: Water Restrictions.
Mr. Greenbaum moved Resolution No. 1 and Mr. Rattner seconded
Mr. Perkins: One of my concerns is that it does not address
any shrubbery that I could see in here.
President Scapicchio: Ray, excuse me one second. Just remember
the Councils reference, there was a revised resolution that
stated March 4, 2002. It should have been in front of your
seat. Does everybody have that?
Mr. Perkins: The few things that jump straight out was
that nowhere is this one which I believe was adopted after
the Freeholders does it address ornamental shrubbery and
that would obviously have to be addressed under item No.
President Scapicchio: Item No. 4; the water for ornamental
purposes, does that address your concern?
Mr. Perkins: Is grass considered ornamental? I would like
to see an inclusion of lawn watering put in there, lawns
President Scapicchio: Would you like to add that under
Mr. Perkins: That is probably the most important place.
Mrs. Miller: While we are on No. 4, I have a question.
We received some information from some of the nurseries
in Town asking that we don't restrict their watering and
that's a commercial business, so perhaps we could put that
phrase like a No. 1 non-commercial. It says non-commercial
washing of cars and trucks, well why can't we have non-commercial
watering of lawns and ornamentals because that would really
devastate those companies if they weren't allowed to water
their shrubbery that is their whole business.
Mr. Perkins: I have to ask our attorney, I believe that
any water restrictions after the Governor has declared the
State of Emergency that water restrictions then fall under
the purview of the Mayor. Being that as it may, one would
have to ask how that affects an individual well, especially
in a commercial establishment. I think we have all seen
enough on the news, as of lately where commercial nurseries
are going to be quote on quote permitted at least at this
point to continue to water their plants though nobody is
going to be able to buy it because they absolutely will
not be able to water them. I am not sure how we would go
about addressing that, and if it is in our purview to address
Mr. Dorsey: The answer is this. Under the ordinance, under
your Code, the Mayor has the right to issue water restrictions.
It is my understanding from the Mayor that he issued water
restrictions a month ago. Now the Governor has the right
to supersede what anybody does. He has now issued water
restrictions. Your water restrictions cannot be less than
whatever the restrictions are that the Governor imposes.
I don't think anybody has actually seen the restrictions,
they are supposed to be issued tomorrow. Perhaps it's a
little bit premature to know exactly what has to be required.
The usual thing is to exempt commercial activities on the
basis that if you don't exempt commercial activities such
as landscaping and or car washes you essentially put them
out of business. If the Governor does it that is fine then
the State can pay the damages and not the Municipality,
but at the moment you almost have to know what restrictions
the State has in place to place this one.
Mr. Spino: Can we pass these as they are or as maybe a
couple of words to be added then when the Governor's comes
out, that will supercede this anyway.
Mr. Dorsey: There are two resolutions one that I drew and
one the Council President Attempted to draw.
President Scapicchio: What do you mean attempted, I did.
Mr. Dorsey: You attempted. What maybe you want to say at
the very end of this is BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that these
restrictions if not consistent with those issued by the
Governor of the State of New Jersey on March 5, 2002 shall
be automatically revised to be consistent with those restrictions.
Mr. Perkins: One other comment that I did have is under
item No. 6, where it addresses the non-emergency use of
fire hydrants without sprinkler caps, that gives one the
impression I think we have all seen where fire department
will provide a four and a half inch nozzle with holes drilled
in it so the kids could run through the stream, and that
is not really appropriate conservation of a actual resource
that we are running short on. So I would like to see us
stop it right after the non-emergency use of fire hydrants.
President Scapicchio: Rob, do you want to reintroduce this
Mr. Greenbaum reintroduced Resolution No. 1 on the non-consent
agenda with the amendment as proposed by Mr. Perkins and
Mr. Dorsey. Mr. Rattner seconded that motion.
President Scapicchio: Any Public comment on this Resolution
with respect to water restrictions? Seeing none we will
close the public comment on this.
Mayor Licitra: We were ahead of everyone on this one. It
just proves us out. I thank our DPW Director Mark DiGennaro
for bringing it to our attention that maybe we should be
ahead of the pack instead of following the pack. I think
if we saved anything, then great, maybe we will have to
restrict a little less. We talked to Trenton today, and
I am positive we are going to get very deep into restrictions.
It is going to come out tomorrow. I can almost perceive
it being private wells also, even thought it is kind of
unenforceable I still think it might be. So I rest assured
that Mt. Olive was in the forefront on this.
President Scapicchio: Mayor, did you notice those restrictions
in the legal paper of the Township? I ask that because our
ordinance specifically requires a specific action be taken
before you can implement other restrictions and they are
as follows; it is required by Chapter 196 Section 32 of
the Mt. Olive Township Code the Mayor is directed to publish
the six restrictions or all its restrictions identified
once in the legal newspaper of the Township of Mt. Olive
and the requirement is that we post the same in at least
three public places for at least three days prior to the
effective date of those restrictions. So if we have not
followed that specific criteria according to our ordinance,
we can't enforce those restrictions.
Mayor Licitra: Ours was voluntary, and I just want you
to take note Dave, that it has been in the local paper.
The date was effective Sunday, January 6, 2002, so it has
to be some time before that.
Mr. Dorsey: Lets put this in the context, the Governor has
issued restrictions. The Governor is the supreme authority
even in Mt. Olive, those restrictions are going to have
to be complied with. If there are going to be additional
restrictions issued pursuant to the request of the Councils'
Resolution because it is essentially requested, then you
are going to have to issue those. You are going to have
to do the appropriate advertisement before they become effective
for enforcement purposes.
Mr. Spino: When and if we have to do that I would have
to suggest we post it not only here as a Public Place but
in all the schools in Town also.
President Scapicchio: Great suggestion Earl.
Mayor Licitra: I'll make you a copy of this for the entire
Council so you have it for your records.
Mr. Greenbaum: It was my understanding that we were going
to get some information on the status of the water systems
in the Town, I have not seen that information yet and I
just request that again from the Administration that we
get updated on any information which could be provided as
to where our systems are currently, how many new well drilling
permits have been issued so we could get a handle on exactly
how bad the problem is in Mt. Olive. I read that letter
to the editor about making fun of us for stopping people
from washing their cars and watering their lawns in the
middle of winter. While I did not agree with him, I am not
sure that our water restrictions as currently in place go
far enough. I know that Roxbury has adopted that ordinance
with regard to hooking up to new housing developments into
the water system. They have some kind of prohibition and
that is something I would like to look at if are currently
having a problem with our water systems. Thank you.
President Scapicchio: Mayor, could we get a report as requested
by Mr. Greenbaum?
Mayor Licitra: When we go through Mr. DiGennaro's budget
on Saturday he will gladly update you before.
ROLL CALL: Passed Unanimously.
Mr. Dorsey: Excuse me Mr. President. One point here. Before
you move No. 2 you better make a decisions as to which one
of these contracts you would like to expedite. If you adopt
No. 3 which is the major contract, the CFO can issue a certificate
of availability of funds forthwith and than can start the
process by which the contract can be notified and I am sure
it is going to take at least a couple of weeks before he
submits all of his bonds etc. Now if you adopt No. 2 tonight
first, then you are not going to be able to have the CFO
issue a certificate of availability of funds for the major
$4 million contract until sometime in the future. It makes
more sense to move No. 3 first and No. 2 second. If you
move No. 3 first, I can guarantee you that not withstanding
soft costs, not withstanding the possibility of litigation
there is enough money so that the CFO can issue the certificate
of availability forthwith and the process can begin.
Mr. Rattner: I just want to thank Mr. Dorsey for that comment.
That is exactly the comment that I had last week. I still
had a problem with looking at all the dollars. I did see
that in the resolution you did take out that the $200,000
from the Soccer Club and it won't sink the whole project
which it did say last week and that is why I asked for the
resolutions to be split up. The big one, I want us to start
get moving on. I know we have the cash. I think we can come
up with the rest. It may take us a little bit of time. We
still have 60 days from the time we got the bids on the
building and I want to move ahead and that was my whole
recommendation last week and now that you said it, maybe
some of my colleagues will believe me.
Mrs. Miller: Is it appropriate to even pass these resolutions?
I thought the resolutions had to wait until the second reading
of the ordinance.
Mr. Dorsey: Follow me carefully here. At the moment there
is available in the bond ordinance $4,529,652.78. That money
is in the bond ordinance, that money has been authorized,
has been appropriated and authorized for expenditure purposes.
The resolution which awards the site bids, includes the
base bid of $3,777,773, alternate No. 1 $140,000, alternate
No. 3 to alternate No. 4 for $393,000 for a total of $4,310,773.
You can authorize resolution No. 3. The money that is in
hand it is not dependent upon the adoption of the amendment
to the original bond ordinance. It is not dependent upon
receipt of the money from the Soccer Club. Resolution No.
3, if adopted tonight will generate a certificate of availability
of funds at her leisure from the CFO and it can go. The
same is not true as to resolution No. 2.
2. Resolution of the Township Council of the Township of
Mount Olive Awarding a Contract for the Building Package
in Connection with the Development of Turkey Brook Park.
3. Resolution of the Township Council of the Township of
Mount Olive Awarding a Contract for Site Development in
Connection with the Development of Turkey Brook.
Mrs. Miller moved for adoption Resolution No. 3 and Mr.
Guenther seconded that motion.
Mrs. Miller: On the bottom of page two, the second WHER
AS from the bottom it talks about and adds to the amounts
available from the contributions, the Soccer Club. I would
like to see Turkey Brook Park contributions.
President Scapicchio: Anyone from the Public have any comment
on Resolution No. 3.
Mr. Heymann, Chairman of The Turkey Brook Park Committee:
I read the Daily record and found out that this was not
moving forward, but I think some bolt of lightening must
of come over and apparently for all the people here in the
room, it looks like good news and we are preceding accordingly
and that is just what I wanted to address. The committee;
most of the members of the committee I think are here spending
a considerable amount of time with the Council wishes in
paring down this project in order to try to come in underneath
the amount of funding level that we had it. Always comes
down to the fact that we are going to have to rely upon
the contributions of the Soccer Club, Toys "R"
Us and any other entity in order to get this done. I know
that today you've have done a first reading with regard
to the buildings.
Mr. Dorsey: There was a first reading of the ordinance
to amend the original bond ordinance to increase the total
amount that can be expended. But the site development contract,
so you understand it is totally within our control at the
moment because there is sufficient money left in the existing
ordinance and account for that contract.
Mr. Heymann: That will move forward and I understand that
and hopefully there will be the requisite amount of funds
so that the structures will also go up. I knew there was
some discussion last week, I think with some questions regarding
those structures, maybe we can delay that and that is not
going to work. It is not going to work for this group of
people . We want a nice facility there and I think that
the fact that 25 port-johns lined up in a row would not
be exactly what I had envisioned. Maybe we are a week behind.
The committee spent a considerable amount of time of getting
this project ready. We wanted to go out to bid for March
1, 2002. I would really just like to thank the Council for
straightening this out in the week's time that the Daily
Record was able to put together these stories of Turkey
Brook being delayed again. I really want to enjoy my retirement.
I don't want to come back here anymore. It is nothing personal
against you people, but I really want to just get Turkey
Brook moving, get on to the second phase. Some of these
phases here from the baseball organization have been there
from the 10 years I am there. They must have more kids than
I can count. They want their kids to get to play on this
field. Next year we really would hope to have it going and
hopefully your questions are answered on the buildings.
That is really all I wanted to say. We will have a meeting
in a couple weeks to make sure that the developer is on
the same page as us.
President Scapicchio: Anyone else from the public on this
resolution? Seeing none we will close the public portion.
Any Council comments?
Mr. Dorsey: This resolution does call for the appropriation
of the soccer money but it is not necessary for the certificate
of availability of funds to be issued. I have simply put
it in here so that it is complete but Mrs. Jenkins now claims
she has already issued the certificate of availability,
so let's go.
Mr. Rattner: I just want to say so there is no doubt. I
do support the buildings, I actually went through the plans.
They are good looking buildings, they are going to be functional
and it is a good value. The big concern I had last week
is whether we could have been delayed in the paperwork because
we did not have the funds. We are still gong to have to
work on that. My plan is hopefully we can resolve everything
within 60 days. Not to go to rebid. We are very very close.
We are probably going to come up with some extra funds and
at the same working on the budget it is difficult. I just
want to make sure that we could go forward, that we would
start with the bull dozers immediately, and start putting
in the fields.
Mrs. Miller: I just have one question. Would it be appropriate
to put a deadline date when this contractor has to be finished
Mr. Buczynski: I think the bid specs call for six months.
Mr. Rattner: There is also liquidated damages for everyday
they don't deliver on time.
Mrs. Miller: So that does not need to be in the resolution
because it is in the contract.
Tom Malavsi: The contract calls for the pond to be built
April 30, 2002. Utilities including storm, drainage by May
15, 2002 the remaining site utility construction by August
16, 2002. All ball fields including fence, irrigation system
and seeding September 15, 2002. All other landscaping by
October 31, 2002. All the seeded areas grown in by June
first 2003. That essentially gives the project two full
Mr. Rattner: To understand the completion date. On section
C, the liquidated damages is $500.00 per day so the contractor
has the incentive to get it done on time.
ROLL CALL: Passed Unanimously
Mr. Dorsey: Mrs. Miller you could move your resolution
dealing with the building package with the explicated understanding
that it cannot go forward with the building package until
the second reading and adoption of the amendment to the
ordinance and the specific receipt of the $200,000 from
the Soccer Club. Those restrictions are contained in here.
Mr. Perkins: I move for adoption of Resolution No. 2 under
non-consent and Mr. Greenbaum seconded that motion.
President Scapicchio: Any public comment on Resolution
Bill Sohl, Budd Lake, NJ: As much as I would like to know
that everybody would see that passed, I understand the predicament
you are in financially. I would simply suggest to table
it, and bring it back up at the appropriate time when the
money is in the appropriate place because the one thing
that has to happen is this has to be approved. Mr. Heymann
took my line relative to the port-john. As many of you remember
I have not been a fan of those no matter where they are.
It would be absolutely abominable for us to have an opening
day at Turkey Brook somewhere down the road with port-johns
in the background. Again I think the proper course of action
or our best course of action would be for the Council to
table it at this point and just put it on for the appropriate
time when you can do it. Thank you.
President Scapicchio: Anyone else from the Public on this
resolution? Seeing none we will close the public portion
on Resolution No. 2. Council Comments?
Mr. Rattner: I am going to vote no just because I think
we could get it completed after we get all the finances
lined up knowing that we have $200,000 in change orders
still sitting that was not accounted for or encumbered in
the first part, the soil removal and we still have $50,000
we have to budget for in the soft costs. When we put those
together we are actually above what we actually have. We
are going to have to look at some other areas to find the
couple dollars that's not even contingencies. I just want
to make sure that we do it once because we could vote on
this now, we are still short dollar wise, and we're going
to have to try re-voting on it again in another two or three
weeks. I think we should take the time, make sure we know
how we are going forward so there are not any surprises
for something at the end that we have to make a quick decision
to appropriate another $1,500 from someplace else.
President Scapicchio: Steve, let me see if I could understand
what you are suggesting. Is it that you think that we should
either appropriate the additional $200,000. To my knowledge
has not been formally requested of this Township but has
been discussed with a employee of the Township reference
to Voller's original proposal or would your suggestion be
that we come to some sort of an agreement with Voller's
before we move forward?
Mr. Rattner: Either that or just to reserve enough funds
for it. The contractor is allowed just like he is allowed
under this contract, they are allowed certain change orders.
We have to accept them and they have to be reasonable and
they have to be documental. That vendor/contractor wrote
this town in October and had some discussions, the internal
memos show that the person who was handling it at the time
thought some of them are probably legitimate, other ones
needed more work. But it would be silly to say that we don't
have any liability at all. If we don't pay it, we may end
up in litigation with them, then we need the legal fees
which is still part of the project. I am just saying that
as we go forward, lets try to get a handle on what it is,
if we don't come to an agreement at least put away the money
so we don't have to worry that we Mr. Rattner (cont'd):
are short and then we can't move forward with any change
orders or regular work because we don't have enough available
funds without increasing the bond again and finding other
places to find the funds.
President Scapicchio: Steve, do you want to just let the
Public know specifically what the issue is? There was a
memo dated October 20, 2001 that I just came in receipt
of Monday morning. Mr. Buczynski faxed it to my office on
Friday. There are two memos in front of me. One is dated
October 20, 2001 and it is to Robert Casey who was the Director
of Special Projects for the Municipality and it is in reference
to Turkey Brook Recreation Park and it is from Vollers'
Excavating and Construction Inc. In this letter there is
a request for 12 change orders. It is my understanding that
the work that's contained within these change orders has
been completed. There was a memo back to Voller's dated
October 22, 2001 from Mr. Casey where he agreed at least
in principle to some of these change orders. He questioned
some of the change orders and further study needed to be
done on some of the other change orders. To the best of
my knowledge, none of these change orders were ever brought
before the Council although that may not be required.
Mr. Dorsey: I can't think of anything more inappropriate
than trying to discuss whether these proposed change orders
are appropriate or inappropriate at a Public Meeting when
certainly no analysis has been done. I would recommend that
you not discuss this.
Mr. Rattner: I just want to say in general terms, and these
questions were answered by Mr. Buczynski when I questioned
the contract we have, and what kind of cases can you have
change orders. I mean there are a lot of things you find
in the field. Actually the stuff that is on here are the
same things he said we would be liable for as we go forward.
We know that they hit rock and redesigned some of the fields
and moved them. That would give rise to a change order.
Of course you can have a change order going down. When we
request them to do something different, I just saw this
for the first time over the weekend and it looks like it
is still an open issue, just like it is with every contract.
We have our change orders. There is a certain amount of
negotiations back and forth and usually we come to some
sort of an agreement. We don't want to end up in litigation
most of the time. I am just saying that these are expenses
that we have to look at as a potential liability. If we
have to pay for it, it has to come out of the same Bond
Ordinance and the same funding we have now. Let's address
it and make sure we have enough money put aside so that
if it does come down that we owe it we could do it without
any problems with the other contract going forward. That
is why I think Mr. Sohl was saying just table it and I think
we could do that within a 60-day window that we have with
the contactor because I don't want to lose and go to bid
again because we lose about three months.
Mr. Buczynski: If I could just add, since Bob Casey left,
we have recently picked this up and we have had some meetings
with Voller's to discuss the change orders. At this point
it is still under discussion, they need to give us some
more additional information so we could advise recommendations
to the Council where to go relative to what if, any should
be, change orders to pay Voller's back. Right now I can't
report on that.
President Rattner: Thanks, Gene. Right now we have Resolution
No. 2 on the table. What is the Council's pleasure? Take
a vote or do you want to make a motion to table?
Mr. Rattner made a motion to table resolution No. 2 and
Mrs. Miller seconded that motion.
ROLL CALL: Defeated. Mr. Rattner, Mrs. Miller, Mr. Guenther
Mr. Greenbaum, Mr. Perkins, Mr. Spino and President
Scapicchio voted no.
President Scapicchio: Resolution No. 2 is back on the table
2. Resolution of the Township Council of the Township of
Mount Olive Awarding a Contract for the Building Package
in Connection with the Development of Turkey Brook Park.
Mr. Spino moved Resolution No. 2 understanding the implementation
and connotations that Mr. Dorsey put on.
President Scapicchio: We have that resolution back on the
table, we have a second. Is there any public comment on
Mr. Heymann: I think John Dorsey covered it perfectly when
he indicated that you could proceed with this window of
60-days. Those were some of the questions that you wanted
to be answered. Those of us who have sat on the Turkey Brook
Project do not want to continue to see this be delayed.
If it is delayed beyond the 60 days because we can't put
the agreements together, the funding is not there, that
is understandable. But to delay it again at this point in
time is not acceptable to us. Again, we have made cuts in
your budget in this project more than what we really wanted
to in order to make every effort to get it to where it is
at. I urge you to please, pass these buildings at this point
in time. Let the clock start ticking. John will do his usual
good job. When it is all said and done the money will be
there and we will get this thing done. If we have learned
any lesson in Mt. Olive, delay is not one of our strong
points. It only costs us more money. Lets get off the dime
and get this thing done and please pass this today. I am
glad you did not table this. There is no basis to do that.
If it does not happen within 60-days, it will automatically
expire anyway. Lets just proceed accordingly. I think I
speak for the committee and the other hundred people that
probably did not expect that little bit of what just of
happened to go on or they would be back in here. So please
lets keep this moving, if it does not happen, I am sure
John will advise all of you and we could sit and discuss
a suitable resolution.
President Scapicchio: Anyone else from the Public?
Mr. Sohl: John, maybe I misunderstood, I did not realize
you could go forward with this tonight and without triggering
a jeopardy situation financially. So if that was the case
then my understanding before was inaccurate and I would
just like to correct that. If there is anyway you could
vote yes, I fully agree with Ron. I vote yes and let the
60-day clock start.
President Scapicchio: Thank you. Anyone else from the public
on this Resolution?
Mr. Guenther: The reason why I voted to table, I will tell
you why. I'd like an explanation of the ramification of
what Mr. Rattner said on the $200,000 on the change orders
and how that effects. From what I understand from Mr. Dorsey
this is not connected with this, but where would the money
come from? Something has to be negotiated here. Apparently
some extra money is due. Would that jeopardize this project?
Mr. Dorsey: Let me go through it again for you Mr. Guenther.
This Resolution contains restrictions and conditions in
it. One of the conditions is you have to adopt on the second
reading the ordinance to amend the bond ordinance, which
would then authorize the additional amounts to be expended.
It is specifically conditioned upon the receipt of the $200,000
from the Soccer Club. When those items are disposed of,
Mrs. Jenkins is in a position to issue a certificate of
availability of funds. That will leave you with a contingency
fund for both the site work and the building project $280,000.
Roughly 5.5% contingency. Mr. Rattner would probably say
that could be light. It could be these other costs that
are hanging out there. Sometimes those costs hang out there
for three or four years. That's the issue.
Mr. Greenbaum: I understand Mr. Rattner's concerns and
I understand what John just said about even if we were to
deal with these contingencies, we would still have enough
money and the soft costs currently to fund both projects,
and still have some money left over once the supplemental
bond ordinance goes forward. I would be very surprised if
down the road we did not need to fund this project additional
dollars based upon change orders. That is really what Mr.
Rattner's concerns are. The bottom line is I think we need
this project. We have the money now and I am prepared to
move forward and I hope that oversight on the project will
keep the costs down as low as possible, but I am prepared
to move forward with it tonight.
Mr. Perkins: I share a concern as I think most of the residents
do here. It is a two-fold thing. One is that we want to
make sure we have enough money obviously to pay for this.
The second is that we want to provide the youth as well
as the rest of the residents because there was passive recreation
there, someplace to finally go. Provided that the funds
are available, I don't see the necessity to discuss change
orders if the proper format for addressing a change order
is that it has to be signed off on before the work is performed,
then normally your not chasing it after ex post facto which
seems to be the case on this first page at Turkey Brook.
I think with a little more due diligence on the part of
our overseers, we won't be faced with twelve change orders
after the fact. That being the case, that is why I move
and I vote to pass this.
Mr. Dorsey: I just want to add one thing. There are certain
monies that are not included in this resolution because
they are not yet ours although they are contracted for.
One is $133,333.00 which is the final payment from AIG/Baker
which I assume that you would devote to this project as
you have the other two-thirds. The other $350,000 will come
from Toll Brothers probably in July or August when they
Mr. Dorsey (cont'd): their DEP approval and take title to
what I refer to as the r-trap. That is the other element
out there, but again I caution you that money is not in
hand, not yet.
President Scapicchio: Thanks John anyone else on the Council?
ROLL CALL: Passed Unanimously with the exception of Mr.
Rattner who voted no.
President Scapicchio: This brings us to the final public
portion of this Council Meeting. Anyone from the Public
have any comment on anything?
Toni Ayers, Sandshore Road, Budd Lake, NJ: I have a recommendation.
The first phase is four soccer fields. I have never gotten
an answer on why we can't have a municipal pool. I say put
the other five soccer fields some place and build us a municipal
pool on that land. Could anyone give me an answer why we
can't have a municipal pool? It would pay for itself. You
have memberships, people join.
Mr. Spino: There was interest in a municipal pool a long
time ago, but I think you are probably the only person that
has ever come up here that I know of and asked for a municipal
Mrs. Ayers: That is because people don't come to meetings.
Why don't you take a poll? Put a poll in the Chronicle and
see who wants a pool.
Mr. Spino: I am not arguing whether we should have a municipal
pool or not. That is not the issue. Certainly you cannot
say that people do not come to meetings. You just saw the
room was filled now everybody is gone because they got what
Mrs. Ayers: Yes. For their own little agenda, yes.
Mr. Spino: Because they got what they wanted. Do you think
that if they wanted a municipal pool that we wouldn't be
interested. There has not been an interest in a municipal
pool way back when people thought we should buy the Racket
Chalet, the old YMCA on Flanders-Netcong road there and
make it a municipal pool. There is not interest that I know
Mrs. Ayers: You don't know that for sure. I know a lot
of people who will not go in the lake. I am not going to
have snakes crawling around my ankles. There are others
who feel the same way. Why do we have to go to Hackettstown?
Mr. Spino: Again, I am not arguing whether we should have
a municipal pool or not. It's just that there has not been
an outfall of interest in Mt. Olive in the last 10 years
that I know of.
Mrs. Ayers: I say again, take a poll and you will find
Mr. Spino: I don't know if I should go looking for it.
Mr. Guenther: Could I make a comment? The squeaky wheel
gets the oil. I understand it is difficult to get people
out at meetings. But you see the results. A strong Soccer
Club, a strong baseball club. They organize to get action.
This has been done before, to get action you need to organize.
Try to do a poll. I remember a long time ago, I don't know
how long ago it was, there was something on the ballot I
believe in connection with the school about building a pool.
It was resoundingly defeated by the voters.
Mrs. Ayers: That is a different story.
Mr. Guenther: Well it was somewhat similar because it was
a pool for use of the Township. Granted that was long time
ago, the demographics of the Township have changed. I hate
to put the burden on you Toni, I would like a pool too.
Mrs. Ayers: It just seems that from day one that it was
a done deal that this was going to be soccer fields and
Mr. Guenther: Toni, they took the soccer fields away when
they built the Middle School. There is a dire need for the
soccer fields so there is a reason for that.
Mrs. Ayers: I called the Board of Education. We have a
total right now as of February 2002 of 4,384 students in
our school system. Now I don't know how many kids are in
the baseball program, approximately 500 in the soccer program?
Mayor Licitra: There is about 1,000 right now and growing.
Mrs. Ayers: Well my question is, what happens to the rest
of the kids? I just feel that a town our size could support
a municipal pool. What property is left? If you fill up
Turkey Brook with fields, not much is left.
Mr. Rattner: That is really not true Toni, Turkey Brook,
B & H, and some other property we are talking about
probably close to 500 acres up there. Even if we build it
all the way out, and this is only one I don't know where
we are going to get the three. We are talking about I believe
it is less than 40% of just the Turkey Brook property. Then
we have the 200 something acres of B & H that we weren't
thinking of putting the soccer fields over there, baseball
someplace else. It seemed a lot better to put everything
together. One parking lot, one set of bathrooms, and it
did. That way it made sense. We have picked up in that area
a lot of property. If there is ever interest, I am sure
there is plenty of property to go and build a pool. A pool
is not going to need that much space. The parking lot is
probably going to be bigger than the pool area.
Mrs. Ayers: How about a poll? I said it three times. A
Mr. Guenther: Why don't you organize a petition drive in
Town to get people to sign a petition who want a pool?
Mrs. Ayers: Ron Heymann said he did not want to come back,
he is younger than I am and he wants to retire.
Mr. Rattner: But he just got wanted, now you get what you
Mrs. Ayers: Well, you have thrown down a challenge for
me. In other words, put their money where their mouths are.
These people that say they want a municipal pool, and they
don't want to go to Hackettstown anymore, why can't we have
a municipal pool, they need to come and tell you that, or
a petition drive. Okay, so there is no good reason that
we can't have a pool other than demand. Is that it in a
President Scapicchio: Demand and interest Toni.
Mrs. Miller: I think that there is one restriction from
the DEP is that we can't have enclosed building. So an indoor
pool would be inappropriate. I know that the hockey people,
they wanted to have a hockey rink there, but that is an
enclosed building and the DEP would not allow something
like that. So there are certain guidelines that we have
to follow from the DEP.
Mrs. Ayers: A pool also allows you to service people who
are blind, disabled, mentally disabled, seniors, little
kids. There people could all use a pool. It is not limited.
You get families. Pop comes homes from work, eventually,
the pool stays open until 8:00 and the whole family could
go swimming. I feel it is just as important as soccer fields.
Mrs. Miller: Of course the way water restrictions are going,
people may not be able to fill their pools this year.
Mrs. Ayers: This is not going to happen this year anyhow.
Hackettstown got some federal funds, and we'll this is not
the right time to approach the Federal Government for funds
I don't think for a pool, but do everything else. It can
be done, that is how I feel. Okay you have challenged me.
President Scapicchio: Toni, I think if there is interest
amongst the Public for a community pool that this Council
will certainly explore that. Thank you.
Jill Daggon, Recreation Supervisor: Toni, we are aware
of a request for a municipal pool. Some considerations in
light of that is again what Charlene has brought up with
Green Acres Property for it to be enclosed would be a problem
on Green Acres Property. To have a pool that is just operational
for two and a half months out of the summer is not cost
effective at this time. I have come from an aquatics background.
I have worked at the YMCA for five years. This is an area
that I am familiar with. We do have a recreation Master
Zoning Plan. That request was submitted to the State as
a request for funding for a municipal pool, Mrs. Daggon
(cont'd): but it would be an indoor enclosed pool. In terms
of needs for seniors, for handicapped, all of that is taken
care of at the beach. We do have a sand wheelchair. We have
programs for autistic children and other handicapped people,
not everybody enjoys the lake. I understand that. But for
a pool to be effective for the Township, it should be an
indoor pool. In our recreation Master Zoning Plan, we have
to take into consideration all the private facilities as
well as Public Facilities. So between the Solar Swim Club,
Vasa Park, the other pools that are in the Township, right
now that does meet our requirements but we are looking down
the road in the future.
Dennis McDonald, 15 Tamarack Road: I just have two questions,
non-related. It was brought to my attention that it was
a possibility that the Council was considering some kind
of a ban on recreational hunting in the Township, was that
President Scapicchio: Absolutely not true. There was someone
here earlier before the meeting started, Lisa had some Public
inquiry and has answered the question the same way. The
council is not looking to band, prohibit, or control hunting
within the borders of Mt. Olive Township.
Mr. McDonald: All this talk about Turkey Brook Park. What
contingency plans have been made for the future control
of deer population on that property now that there is no
hunting allowed on the existing Turkey Brook Park as evidence
with Mendham and Princeton and other Towns? I think they
are spending I think $400.00 per deer to eliminate them
by professional shooters now, have you thought about these
long range plans, population wise. Biologically you are
going to have a problem up there four or five years from
now without any kind of population control. I am just asking
has anyone thought about that with all their other plans
about the park. Is there a possibility, maybe, of a control
like Mendham has in Mendham Township similar down the road
to that area because of having a great deal of experience
in this I have watched, for example, Hercules down in Kenvil
getting over populated, Stripping the trees, destroying
the vegetation and then at some point it got to a point
where the disease was tremendous and they brought in massive
sharpshooters in the early 60's and just killed hundreds
and hundreds of creatures because they were diseased. I
think you have potential here for a problem that you should
address in the future.
President Scapicchio: I think when we start planning for
the maintenance for that facility that certainly is a time
and the appropriate place to address that. Thank you.
Mr. Spino: I would like to make sure that Mr. McDonald
knows when we are going to have the discussion on the pieces
of five acre properties that we were talking about hunting
on. I would advise you to keep your guard up just so you
know what is going on about hunting in the Town.
Mr. McDonald: I was just told that there was no discussion
Mr. Spino: This is not a ban, we are going to be discussing
some issues and it has to do mainly with making sure the
hunters know exactly where there property lines are that
they are hunting on. We will be discussing it. If you give
your name and address to Lisa, we will let you know ahead
of time when this will be discussed at a future workshop.
Mr. McDonald: I also think that it would behoove the Township
Council to utilize the State Resources Fish and Game personnel,
and people whose legal abilities are far greater than our
local police force where they could enforce the existing
ordinances of the State without recurring expenses on our
President Scapicchio: Let me tell you what I have done
so far. The public has brought up the issue of hunters that
hunt on property leased by hunting clubs, hunting on their
property. Actually moving off the leased property. There
are two things specificly that this Council will address
at a future workshop. First, that the property owner is
required to supply the Township with the name the address
and phone number of a contact person responsible within
that gun club that leases that property. The purpose of
that is so that the Police Department and /or the Township
Clerk have a telephone number and a name if there is an
emergency or a complaint we have a contact person to contact.
The second issue that is going to be put on the table for
discussion is that of one where we make it a requirement
where the property owner is responsible to make sure that
all the hunters that hunt on his/her property know that
exact boundaries of that particular piece of property. Lisa
has reached out to the Chief of Police, Ed Katona, and has
requested a list of any and all names or numbers of hunting
club members he knows of so that she could invite them to
future workshop meetings. She also has the names and phone
numbers of the State Officials and some local residents
or hunters who have voiced concern over this issue. When
it is to the point to be scheduled for a workshop those
individuals will certainly be invited and encouraged to
participate in that discussion. Anyone else from the Public?
Colleen Labow Budd Lake NJ: I just want to say that at
last Tuesday's meeting, when you were faced with the resolution
and the ordinance. I think that was really great the way
that you went forward when you did, and had a chance to
review everything. It seems you feel much more comfortable
with the decisions that you made tonight. I also want to
say as far as the lake goes, I have been going to the lake
for years and the staff at the lake is phenomenal. For the
bad rap that our lake has it is really I think unfounded
because it has been a very enjoyable experience. How many
places can you go where you can bring your cooler or what
ever and sit there and enjoy the sun, the kids are playing,
you have activities and it is a very enjoyable experience.
As far as for the children, there are the 4,000 students
in our school system, more than half of them are involved
in sports. My child happens to be in the minority that is
not involved in sports and that is why I would like to see
our teen center and things of that nature move forward so
we can satisfy the needs of all the students in our community.
President Scapicchio: Anyone else from the Public? Seeing
none, we will close the Public Portion.
COUNCIL COMMENTS ON INDIVIDUAL RESOLUTIONS - none
COUNCIL COMMENTS -none
Motion made for adjournment. All in Favor, none opposed.
The Meeting was Adjourned at 8:35 pm.
I, LISA M LASHWAY, Township Clerk of the Township of Mount
Olive do hereby certify that the foregoing Minutes is a
true and correct copy of the Minutes approved at a legally
convened meeting of the Mount Olive Township Council duly
held on May 14, 2002.
LISA M. LASHWAY
Mount Olive Township Clerk