Township Council Minutes
July 23, 2002
PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
MOMENT OF REFLECTION in recognition of the men and women
fighting terrorism and defending the freedom we all enjoy
OPEN PUBLIC MEETINGS ACT ANNOUNCEMENT
According to the Open Public Meetings Act, adequate Notice
of this Meeting has been given to the Mt. Olive Chronicle
and the Morristown Daily Record. Notice has been posted
at in the Municipal Building, 204 Flanders-Drakestown Road,
Mt. Olive, New Jersey, and notices were sent to those requesting
ROLL CALL: Present: Mr. Rattner, Mr. Greenbaum, Mr. Perkins,
Mrs. Miller, Mr. Guenther President Scapicchio
Absent: Mr. Spino
Also in attendance: Mayor Licitra, Cynthia Spencer, Business
Administrator; John Dorsey, Township Attorney; Sherry Jenkins,
CFO; Lisa Lashway, Township Clerk.
PUBLIC COMMENT PERIOD
Mayor Licitra: I have a couple of things. One thing, I
was able to secure this from the Chief, as you can see this
is our whole Police Force. Officer Abrusci thought up the
idea, he did all the picture work himself. Each Policeman
got a sponsor, they made 1500 of these and they are going
to be giving them out to the children in Town so that Police
are more identifiable. If you see the back of this, it has
information on each one of the Police Officers. Where they
came from, what schools they went to, where they live, etc,
etc. I think it is a great idea. It just shows that our
outreach program at the Police Department is just getting
better between the Police on the bikes and the D.A.R. E.
program, the MOMAC program and everything else that has
to do with that. They are getting into the community more
and the kids are getting to accept them. I think it is a
great idea. We will see how the first 1500 go and we can
get a lot more. Like I said they went out and got sponsors
for these, so it is a great deal. I don't have anything
else. Actually I do have one other thing to say. Whoever
took the signage over at Flanders Crossing for the crosswalks.
It's in somebody's bedroom in Town. We spent $400 a piece.
Each one of those crosswalk signs cost $400 and one is missing
now. We did order four so we have one in reserve which we
will put up but the crosswalk sign is down which I guess
we should expect that. I just hope the next one doesn't
TURKEY BROOK PARK PROJECT STATUS
Mrs. Spencer: Basically the construction project is moving
along and the project overall is if you recall at the last
meeting I reported that they were approximately four weeks
behind schedule. Now they have made up a little bit of time
and they believe that they are about three weeks behind
schedule. Permits should become available by the end of
the week for the drilling to commence for the well. The
tree and stump removal should be completed no later than
this Friday, the compaction has been completed on the retaining
walls and now the contractor is going to be required to
treat the weed issue through an application of round up
as part of the roto darien soil remediation efforts starting.
Then he will also be required to follow up with pre-emergent
herbicides in the Fall and Spring while the grass seed is
rooting. The turf is stabilized and we did go ahead with
a change in the specified sprinkler head to the irrigation
system so that it would be compatible with the toro heads
that we are using in Flanders Park so that tour maintenance
people would be trained and they would be interchangeable
and it would just make maintenance and any repairs easier
to be effectuated.
President Scapicchio: Cindy, does that change involve any
additional cost or credits?
Mrs. Spencer: I am not sure whether there will actually
be a credit or not; it's minimal if anything but it's certainly
not an increase. We did find out from the Soccer Committee
that they expect to give the Township the remaining $50,000,
hopefully the first week in October. We contacted Consolidated
Building and they have agreed to hold their prices until
that time on the restroom and facility. So we are moving
ahead with that. We had been notified that the Police had
received a complaint that the contractor had been starting
work before the hours specified in our Noise Ordinance so
we have made sure that the contractor is fully aware of
the hours of operation and so he has agreed to comply. I
think they were just becoming a little over eager to maximize
their work days. But they understand that they can no longer
do that. I guess basically the elevations have been set
and the project is moving along.
Mr. Rattner: That is a good report. Are there any issues
or anything that you are working on now, in other words
road blocks or certain things that happen in any type of
construction that has to be resolved?
Mayor Licitra: Do you know something Steve?
Mr. Rattner: No, but usually we don't find out until maybe
a month after. I really don't.
Mrs. Spencer: There are always daily little things that
come up that have to be resolved. There are still a couple
of change order issues that the contractor is now waiting
to get the signed off version from the engineers because
of the fact that the contractor had been eager in the beginning
to move ahead out of sequence and as a result often had
to backtrack because the work had not been done.
Mr. Rattner: Once they get out of sequence we would not
be responsible for paying any extra money.
Mrs. Spencer: And we are not. But what I am saying is,
the only outstanding issues is that at this point in time,
there are some elevations on two of the fields. I think
the football field and one of the baseball fields. We had
a meeting last Friday and that should be taken care of no
later than this week.
Mr. Rattner: Is the elevation the difference of eight to
twelve inches or something? Is that we are talking about
where it is?
Mrs. Spencer: No, it's very close. They just want it in
writing before they finalize it.
Mrs. Miller: Little red flags always go up when I hear
the spraying of pesticides as a wildlife rehabilitator.
I have had to handle a lot of birds that have died because
people have sprayed weed killers. I had a blind robin for
nine years because it was in a lawn when somebody was spraying
weed killers. I would like to know what kind of chemicals
we are going to be spraying on Turkey Brook Park, especially
since we have had pesticide problems with it in the past.
We had a great expense at remediating and I would like to
know what those chemicals are before we spray them because
if they are dangerous to our wildlife and I have a list
of them and I believe I have given Administration a list,
I want to know before it is sprayed.
Mrs. Spencer: Okay. I can tell you that the initial application
of Round Up is what you have purchased for your own weed
Mrs. Miller: Most of the over the counter weed control
that individual use are probably more harmful than the ones
that are used on golf courses. So that is not a satisfactory
President Scapicchio: Jim, do you want to speak to the
Jim Lynch, Supervisor Recreation, Building, and Grounds:
I think I could explain a little bit better the issue with
the Round Up. What has been done is that it has been structured
in our working agreement with Conte Construction. Round
up will be applied. It will be applied by a license applicator
in the State of New Jersey at Label rates that the manufacturer
and the federal Government and the State of New Jersey agree
are acceptable. It should have no impact than what a homeowner
can do. I do agree those chemicals can be more dangerous
in a homeowners hands. What will happen is that they will
post fair warning. There is a reentry period once the property
is sprayed and those guidelines will be noted to the public
and we will follow every precaution that is suggested by
the manufacturer of the round up problem. Once that process
is complete, if you want we could make a notification to
you of that, that we are done with that process and the
reentry period is expired. I can compile a list of what
might possibly be used. I will not know until next spring
when the grass seed is in the ground and we have a stand
of turf grass exactly what products. It depend on what weeds
emerge. We can do recommendations. I have contacts with
Rutgers University. I carry a pesticide license for the
State of New Jersey. I would be more than happy to provide
you what we plan on applying.
Mrs. Miller: I would still like a list because I still
get information from the Citizens Clearing House of Hazardous
Waste and they tell me that round up causes cancer in Children.
Nine percent in boys and seven percent in girls. I get all
sorts of hazardous waste information and I am not comfortable
with spraying pesticides or herbicides at Turkey Brook Park.
Especially with what we have been through. So I would definitely
like a list.
Mr. Lynch: We can compile that for you and we can work
to have that within the next few weeks.
Mr. Rattner: Obviously I am not smart enough to know which
herbicides, insecticides and fertilizers are bad, however
I believe we have an Ordinance from our Health Department
that anybody commercial operator before
Mr. Rattner (cont'd): they start an operation they have
to be registered. They have to give all the documentation
to the Health Department and as long as you know, they will
be looking it over, so besides having Mr. Lynch's knowledge,
if they go and make sure that the rates of application have
been approved, that gives us an extra confidence level.
I just want to make sure that we obey our own orders and
we make the applicator of whoever is going to do it get
the same permit that we would if they were going to do BASF
or somebody like that.
Mr. Lynch: I just want to let the Council know. I feel
in my opinion, it is the most responsible course of action.
This application of Round Up is necessary to insure proper
establishment of our desire turf grass species that have
been speced for the park. This will be done in a manor;
a liquid application of Round Up by a licensed applicator
with the proper equipment is much more safe than putting
out a granular herbicide in the non-selective herbicide
forms. By doing this in a liquid application, the plant
will uptake the material and will not be in contact with
the soil surface for any longer period of time than it takes
to dry in the sun. A granular application relies on timed
release and it is susceptible to wind to water and other
natural elements that could force it to be washed across
the park service and end up in a non-target area. We are
researching the most effective manor and the most responsible
manor to get the product down.
President Scapicchio: It appears to me, Charlene, that
Jim has a level of knowledge and control.
Mrs. Miller: I have also handled birds that have had deformed
beaks and deformed feet because they have gone into lawns
that were sprayed with the liquid herbicide. I have seen
it myself. If you think I am an alarmist. So be it. But
I have seen it myself.
President Scapicchio: Thank you Jim.
Mr. Guenther: You mentioned that we are now three weeks
behind schedule. How does that effect the seeding program
Mrs. Spencer: Actually they believe they will meet their
August time. The window for seeding is August 15, 2002 through
October 15, 2002 and according to their schedule they will
start seeding in August. What is happening with their schedule
is that they will be postponing some of the paving so that
they could put more resources on the seeding.
Mr. Guenther: I will have to say that I understand, I have
had a discussion about this with Jim Lynch and I personally
inspected the site when they took the trees down and stumps
were still in the ground and I could see where a lot of
the mature trees taken down were diseased. On the other
hand I am very disconcerted driving by that site seeing
the bare house there without anything in front and what
I would like to suggest is that we find some money within
the Turkey Brook Budget or maybe by what we are going to
save from bulk mailings instead of sending things out first
class mail, to find some mature trees larger trees to plant
in front. After all the construction work is done and everything
is in place, some kind of a buffer between the road and
Mrs. Spencer: We actually have identified a fund I cannot
remember the specific name of it offhand, but we have a
fund where developers who are taking down trees have to
contribute for every tree that is removed. We can use monies
from that fund to, in fact, plant mature trees.
Mr. Guenther: What I am saying is no, don't get these little
six foot pines that will take 30 years to grow to a decent
height. I am saying spend a little bit more money. I understand
they are expensive but they can be found already grown at
12, 15, 20 feet.
Mrs. Miller: I would like to add to Bernie's comments.
We wouldn't allow a developer to not have a buffer between
his project and residential homes and we have to make sure
that we have a 25 ft. landscape buffer. I would like to
see a variety of trees. Bernie wants to see mature trees;
I would like to see a variety of trees. Trees that are more
native to New Jersey.
Mrs. Spencer: Jim and I will work with Gene Buczynski and
his group to make sure that we have a plan and we will bring
Mrs. Miller: I don't want to see all White Pines.
Mr. Scapicchio: Charlene, would you like to see a plan
before we move forward?
Mrs. Miller: I think that would be nice.
Mrs. Spencer: Not a problem.
President Scapicchio: I spoke with Gene Buczynski today
and I scheduled a walking tour of Turkey Brook Park for
Tuesday July 30, 2002 at 5:00 pm. If there are those that
would like to participate and aren't available we could
maybe try to change a day or time to accommodate everyone.
The Mayor say's he is going to be there.
Mrs. Spencer: We are having some difficulties keeping the
site closed. We had an incident the other day where people
came on site with trucks and kayaks.
President Scapicchio: That was me. That was my tour and
after the tour I stopped and talked to the supervisor of
Mrs. Spencer: I hope you stayed on the roadway and didn't
drive across any of the re-graded fields.
President Scapicchio: I did not drive across any fields.
If that is what he told you, he was telling you.
Mrs. Spencer: I was kidding.
President Scapicchio: I stayed on the roads and I specifically
went there to see where all of our tax dollars were going
and how they were being spent. I just happen to stop there
before I met Bernie because Bernie also has a Kayak. Actually
I think, all kidding aside I think that we should all on
this Council, every couple of weeks take a tour of that
park to be able to see the progress first hand. It is a
big project, there is a lot of money, and I think that the
more interest that contractor sees I think the better you
will see that product.
Mrs. Miller: I like those aerial photos. I would like to
see more of them.
President Scapicchio: You have to pay for those Charlene.
I think the walking tours every couple of weeks are probably
a real good idea.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES OF PREVIOUS MEETINGS:
April 9, 2002 Present: Mr. Greenbaum, Mrs. Miller, Mr.
Mr. Rattner, President Scapicchio, Mr. Spino
Absent: Ray Perkins
April 30, 2002 Present: Mr. Guenther, Mr. Greenbaum, Mrs.
Miller, Mr. Spino, Mr. Scapicchio
Absent: Mr. Rattner, Mr. Perkins
May 14, 2002 Present: Mr. Rattner, Mr. Greenbaum Mr. Perkins,
Mr. Guenther, President Scapicchio
Absent: Mr. Spino
June 25, 2002 Present: Mr. Greenbaum, Mrs. Miller, Mr.
Mr. Rattner, President Scapicchio
Absent: Ray Perkins, Mr. Spino
July 9, 2002 CS Present: Mr. Guenther, Mrs. Miller, President
Scapicchio, Mr. Rattner,
Absent: Mr. Perkins, Mr. Spino
Mrs. Miller moved for approval of the minutes and Mr. Guenther
seconded the motion.
ROLL CALL: Passed Unanimously with the exception of Mr.
Rattner who yes on all except April 30, 2002 Mr. Perkins
voted yes on May 14, 2002 and abstained on the rest.
Resolutions, Ordinances, Correspondence from other Municipalities
1. Resolution received July 10, 2002, from the Borough
of Mt. Arlington regarding the Urging of the Governor not
to withdraw or reduce funds from the Emergency Medical Technician
2. Ordinance received July 11, 2002, from the Township
of Chester regarding Land Use.
3. Resolution received July 15, 2002, from Rockaway Township
regarding Overcrowding Housing Violations.
4. Resolution received July 15, 2002, from the Morris County
Board of Chosen Freeholders regarding the Pledge of Allegiance
5. Letter received July 17, 2002, from the Township of
Long Hill regarding Assembly Bill A-273 which would decrease
polling hours for certain Elections by changing the time
for polling place hours to begin at 7:00am rather than 6:00am.
6. Three Ordinances received July 18, 2002, from Washington
Township regarding Land Use.
League of Municipalities
7. Letter received July 11, 2002, from New Jersey State
League of Municipalities regarding Executive Order No. 21.
8. Legislative Bulletin received July 15, 2002, from the
New Jersey State League of Municipalities regarding Bills
that were enacted as Public Laws of 2002.
DOT / DEP / Permit's / LOI's
9. Letter received July 8, 2002, from the State of New
Jersey, Department of Environmental Protection regarding
Preliminary Engineering Report Dam Safety Compliance Schedule,
Mine Hill Reservoir Dam / NJDEP Dam File No. 24-23.
10. Letter received July 11, 2002, from the State of New
Jersey, Department of Environmental Protection regarding
Morris County Compost Facility - Mt. Olive Facility ID#
1427001115 Recycling Center General Approval modification.
11. Letter received July 15, 2002, from Gregory Pssas,
P.E., P.P regarding Sewer Extension Application, Woodfield
at Mount Olive Sections IIB
12. Letter received July 15, 2002, from the State of New
Jersey Department of Environmental Protection regarding
30 - Day Extension Letter File No. 1427-02-0005.1FHA020001
/ Applicant: Gen III Builders, Block 7801, Lot 41 (Vacant
Land - 97 acres , Mount Olive Road)
13. Letter received July 17, 2002, from State of New Jersey,
Department of Environmental Protection regarding Freshwater
Wetlands Transition Area Exemption Application. Applicant:
Harriet Nucci Block 3305, Lot 29, (Intersection of Spring
and Center Streets)
14. Letter received July 19, 2002, from the State of New
Jersey, Department of Environmental Protection regarding
Letter of Interpretation - Delineation under one acre. Applicant:
Gary Forgey/Douglas Lessig Block 3305; Lot 28 (51 Center
Correspondence from Legislative Representatives
15. E-mail received July 11, 2002, from Congressman Frelinghuysen's
regarding Newsletter on Meeting Residents, Homeland Security,
corporate Criminals, Crossroads of the American Revolution
National Heritage Area.
16. E-mail received July 19, 2002, from Congressman Frelinghuysen's
office regarding Concerns of Residents, House Floor, Highlands
Preservation Bill, and corporate responsibility.
17. Tort Claim received July 8, 2002, from the Superior
Court of New Jersey Regarding Tomas Greenberger and West
125th Street Associates against Citicorp Vendor Finance,
18. Notice received July 10, 2002, from Mount Olive Township
Planning Board regarding a Public Hearing on Application
No. 02-28 pertaining to Land Use on Block 4400, Lot 12 (Nelson,
75 Flanders Road)
19. Explanation of Tax Rates for Mount Olive Township received
July 15, 2002, from the Morris County Board of Taxation.
President Scapicchio stated that we had 19 pieces of correspondence
on the agenda and asked if Council had any comments on same?
ORDINANCES FOR PUBLIC HEARING - NONE
ORDINANCES FOR FIRST READING - NONE
CONSENT RESOLUTIONS AGENDA:
Resolutions on the Consent Agenda List are considered to
be routine and non-controversial by the Township Council
and will be approved by one motion (one vote). There will
be no separate discussion or debate on each of these resolutions
except for the possibility of brief clarifying statements
that may be offered. If one or more Council member requests,
any individual resolution on the Consent Agenda may be removed
from the Consent Agenda List and acted on separately.
1. Resolution of the Township Council of the Township of
Mount Olive Authorizing the Execution of a Developer's Agreement
Between the Township and Circle Builders Co., Inc. (formerly
known as Geralyn Palumbo)
2. Resolution of the Township Council of the Township of
Mount Olive Authorizing the Execution of a Developer's Agreement
Between the Township and Toll Brothers, LLC Morris Hunt
3. Resolution of the Township of Mount Olive Reducing the
Performance Guarantees of Pierson Realty, LLC
4. Resolution of the Township Council of the Township of
Mount Olive Authorizing the Closure of Johnson Avenue. -
5. Resolution of the Township Council of the Township of
Mount Olive Closing River Road Between Flanders-Drakstown
Road and Drakestown Road Between July 24, 2002 and July
Resolution of the Township Council of the Township of Mount
Olive Authorizing the Purchase of Two Vehicles for the Department
of Public Works - On for 8/6/02 meeting when capital ordinances
MOTION TO APPROVE CONSENT RESOLUTIONS AGENDA
President Scapicchio: This brings us to the Consent Resolutions
Mr. Guenther: You took No. 2 off right?
President Scapicchio: No. 2 is off. No. 4 is amended and
No. 6 is off.
Mrs. Lashway: No. 5 is being amended.
President Scapicchio: Okay we are going to have someone
move Resolution No. 1, No. 3, No. 4 as amended, No. 5 is
being amended to require a five day notice before closure,
No. 6 six removed.
Mr. Guenther: How is No. 4 amended? It is amended subject
to the opening of?
President Scapicchio: No. 4 was amended when you got here
Mr. Guenther: Authorizing the closing of Johnson Ave?
Mrs. Lashway: And the only amendment was it was written
that the DPW was doing the work, it's not it was the developer.
That was the only change that was made to the Johnson Ave.
Mr. Rattner: We still want to have the signs and there
was the issue that according to the Resolution the people
will have another road.
President Scapicchio: During the previous Workshop we instructed
Cindy to take care of that.
Mr. Guenther: To take care of what? To do what?
President Scapicchio: To make sure that road was open and
usable before Johnson was closed.
Mr. Guenther: Well that's that I meant, isn't that the
Mrs. Miller: It says Wildwood.
President Scapicchio: If that is what you want it to say
Bernie, I don't have a problem with that.
Mr. Guenther: I am just trying to make sure to see where
you're going to
President Scapicchio: Read it, because it says it in there.
It is down at the end. Is that satisfactory Bernie?
Mr. Guenther: I guess that covers it. Okay.
President Scapicchio: Cindy you will make sure that road
is accessible before they close Johnson?
Mrs. Spencer: Yes.
Mr. Greenbaum moved Resolutions No. 1, No. 3 and No. 4
and 5 as amended. Mr. Guenther seconded the motion. Any
public comment on the Consent Resolution Agenda? Seeing
none we will close the public portion. Council comments?
ROLL CALL: Passed Unanimously.
1. Bill List.
Mr. Greenbaum moved for approval of the Bill List. Mr.
Perkins seconded the motion,
President Scapicchio: Council discussion?
Mr. Rattner: I think this is just for the Council members
that are on Turkey Brook Committee, I noticed we are paying
a substantial amount to Conti Construction, which has been
reviewed by the committee, we think that was justified because
I think it is $1.4 million. Bernie, do you recall that being
Mr. Guenther: I haven't been to any committee meetings.
I could tell you that it was for the rock removal that had
already been approved and then there was a portion. They
have completed over 50% of the project and it was reviewed
by Olympus, by Gene Buczynski and myself and the work has
been completed for what they had put in the payments for.
President Scapicchio: Has Olympus and Buczynski signed
off and authorized payment?
Mrs. Spencer: Absolutely.
Mr. Guenther: Does this take care of all the rock removal
or is there still additional billing for the rock removal?
Mrs. Spencer: No. The rock removal is fully paid for.
President Scapicchio: There is still additional rock removal
to be done though.
Mrs. Spencer: But we will not receive a bill for it.
Mr. Dorsey: Is that true in terms of sewer trenches?
President Scapicchio: That is why I am bringing that up.
Mrs. Spencer: We made an agreement with the contractor
that if we agree to that amount then, in fact, any additional
rock removal will be at his cost.
President Scapicchio: I am not disputing the amount. The
question I have is; we are paying them in advance for of
completion of rock excavation according to John, the Super's,
comments to me on Monday night. I said "how are you
making out with rock excavation?" He say's "we
are almost done, we are not there yet, we have more blasting
and they are waiting for the blaster to come back."
So as of Monday, yesterday, all of the rock excavation is
Mrs. Spencer: I understand what you are saying and I am
quite sure that John, since he is only on the job for two
weeks is not aware of what the agreement was for the rock
President Scapicchio: I am not disputing the agreement.
The question I have is; is it appropriate to pay him in
advance for the completion of rock excavation. That is the
question, not whether we have an agreement. We do have an
Mrs. Spencer: We believe that it was applicable because
of the amount of rock that had been removed vs. what was
left and what we had agreed to. I understand what your question
President Scapicchio: Is there additional rock removal
to be done? Is it all completed?
Mrs. Spencer: It is not 100% complete.
President Scapicchio: Are we paying them 100% of the rock
Mrs. Spencer: Yes. At the discounted rate.
President Scapicchio: But it was not discounted because
we were going to pay them in advance. Right?
Mrs. Spencer: Correct.
President Scapicchio: So that is the question. Is it appropriate
and we are dancing around it. Is it appropriate to pay him
in advance of completion? Now if you were to say, 80% of
the rock excavation is complete, we authorize 80% of the
money to be released, I could accept that. But I can't accept
the argument that they are not done but we are going to
release the money. That is how we get ourselves caught.
Lets keep him motivated. Why should we pay him in advance
of completion? Does anybody have any concerns with respect
Mr. Guenther: You have a very good point. The other question
I would have then, if, in fact, there is some additional
rock excavation, why do we have our two engineers authorizing
the release of the payment prior to completion?
Mr. Rattner: I was going to ask just in total, we know
we have an amended contract with Conti of what about $5
million? How much have we paid him up until now and what
do we say the percentage of completion is at this point.
It should be on the voucher right?
Mrs. Spencer: Yes.
Mr. Rattner: So, what is the total amount of the contract
as amended with the change order and how much have we paid
them? If you could look that up, I just want to get a feeling
and then we need an estimate of how much work in total is
done. I just want to make sure in total, I am not concerned
if we get ahead of one or the other, but I don't want to
get ahead in total.
Mrs. Spencer: I understand what you're saying with the
rock. I do understand that point. But in terms of the other
payments he is probably 20% behind in his billings from
completed work on the rest of the project with the exception
of the rock.
President Scapicchio: What do you base that on, though,
Mayor Licitra: Why don't we do this Dave, it would be easier
if we just take it off the Bill List and we'll get you the
information that you are going to require and Cindy is going
to be able to look for it tonight. So we will take it off
the Bill List and we will put it on the next Bill List with
President Scapicchio: What page is that on?
Mr. Rattner: Page 4.
President Scapicchio: I would also like an answer as to
why we have two Engineers authorizing the release of funds.
I agree with you.
Mayor Licitra: I agree with you. I can't disagree with
President Scapicchio: It is not you or Cindy. Maybe we
should have that stuff in writing from now on from them
if we don't already. Okay, so we are going to move on the
amended Bill List. We have a motion to approve.
Mr. Greenbaum moved the amended the motion to move the
Bill List and Mrs. Miller seconded the motion.
2. Approval of Peddler's Permits for Randy Banther and
Edgar Garcia for Mobile Food Vending.
Mr. Perkins moved for approval of the above listed Peddler's
Permits and Mr. Guenther seconded the motion.
Mr. Rattner: I have one question I am a little confused.
All the paperwork is in order except for the fact that Mr.
Banther, I don't know what he is peddling. Is he going to
be going door to door selling furniture. If we could just
have that on there, it has his employer. A catering truck
I understand, magazines you understand. North Carolina Furniture
Mr. Guenther: I guess it is probably a fault of the form,
it really doesn't require you to state that. What is the
nature of their activity?
Mr. Rattner: I will vote for it, lets just in the future
lets get it on there.
Mr. Greenbaum: Planning board has not met. We went to one
meeting a month in the summer partly due to the leaving
of Chuck. The only other issue which recently came up with
regard to Planning Board was that the Appellate Division
decision in Hashemi which is now coming back to a very limited
group of members of Planning Board who weren't involved
in the original decision I think there are five of us who
were not involved originally who are going to be, I assume,
hearing the Hashemi application in the month of August.
Library Board Liaison Report
Mrs. Miller: The Library Board has met and they have adopted
some directives that they are going to give the construction
people on the bids. I thought I would go over those so Steve
could hear them, they will make it official eventually.
One of the alternate things that they are going to do is
deduct or reduce the basement by 2500 feet. Second, to deduct
or eliminate the finished course paving of all driveways
and parking lots. The third alternative would be to add
to the complete landscaping plan as indicated on the contract
documents. To complete only basic restoration of site and
splitrail fence details to be eliminated from the plan if
they increase the current landscaping budget. Number four,
they are going to add to the complete future drop off at
the front of the building as indicated on the site plan.
Number five they are going to request that the remaining
arcade section be included in the building plan. They also
approved a rear building stone removal. They also approved
Sketch A as submitted by Goodland and Clearwater for rear
loading area, so they are trying to eliminate some of the
costs. Kind of a pick and choose type of bidding process.
That is all I have right now.
President Scapicchio: Thanks Charlene.
Recreation Report / Legislative Committee
Mr. Guenther: There is really nothing to report, there
has been no meeting for the summer. Secondly the Legislative
committee which has been kind of dormant, we are waiting
for time for the new Administration in Trenton to get settled.
But we have to re-establish contact with them regarding
traffic issues on Route 206 & 46. I noticed the other
day there was a very serious accident entering the Trade
Zone. That corner continues to be a problem. There were
certain improvements, that one meeting we did have with
our Legislators at that time there were certain things they
were going to do on Rt. 206. Some of them had been done,
but not all of them.
Mr. Guenther (cont'd): So I think we sort of have to pick
up the ball. Some of the same players that were involved
in our first meeting might not be around in Trenton anymore.
I'll be contacting Guy Gregg's office to see how we can
pick up on that again and try to pick the communication
with the Department of Transportation.
President Scapicchio: Thanks, Bernie and I have no report.
That brings us to the last Public Comment Period.
Dave Jones, Budd Lake: Just out of curiosity, is there
any pest or insect problem up at Turkey Brook Park right
now? Do we foresee one in the future?
President Scapicchio: Insect problem?
Mr. Jones: Yes, because they are going to spray.
President Scapicchio: Jim, there is no insect problem,
Mr. Lynch: Insects no, we need an herbicide treatment. There
is a weed condition.
Mr. Jones: So there is a weed situation right now.
Mr. Lynch: Yes. It is a common situation once you expose
topsoil. The topsoil on the site when it was moved by Voller's
exposed new earth. By removing the soil and stockpiling
it in the rear, once it is transplanted on to the fields
by Conti Construction, it is a very fertile seed bed, the
area was a farm. There are a lot of weeds. Once they produce
their seed head it falls into the soil and they grow. We
have to eliminate that to get a stand of turf grass that
Mr. Jones: Why did you remove all of the trees in the first
place in the buffer zone? I know some were rotted but not
all of them were rotted.
Mr. Guenther: I mentioned that to you and preceding my
comments Dave, I personally went there after the trees had
been removed and the stumps are still on the ground. I question
the fact that a lot of small trees were taken down. That
I do question, but the large ones, you can see that they
were seriously rotted out in the middle, which is exactly
what Jim had explained to me in the first place as to why
they all had to come down. They're might have been one or
two that weren't quite as diseased as the others, but it
was really quite widespread.
Mr. Jones: Do the developers in Trade Zone South plan on
putting up any lights? It seems really dangerous at night.
President Scapicchio: Dave, we brought that issue up and
the Planning Board did not require them to install any kind
of street lighting other than what you see. Mr. Buczynski
has told us that he believes the lighting situation will
get better once some of those stores on the outside of the
main development are built. The answer to your question
is the Planning Board did not require it.
Mayor Licitra: Previous Planning Board.
Mr. Jones: Is it going to be brought up at all?
President Scapicchio: I think the only thing this Council
could do is the only time they come before us requesting
some sort of relief, we can then try to get them to do something
to help that situation out.
Mr. Jones: As far as the situation on Route 46, is that
a State matter?
Mr. Guenther: I believe so. We did discuss at the last
meeting that Gene Buczynski attended and he was going to
contact the State about that. But I would still like to
take it up from a legislator's level as well to see if we
apply some pressure there because it is really bad and there
are constantly people going west. They are clogging up traffic
especially at rush hour trying to take a left turn out of
what is supposed to be the true traffic lanes and they won't
move until the light changes. It has to change several times,
it goes in sequence all around before it changes, so they
cause hazardous conditions.
Mr. Jones: Thank you.
President Scapicchio: Anyone else from the public?
Tom Casserly, Budd Lake: Just to add to what Dave just
said, we are talking about people trying to make left hand
turns, what about the people making left hand turns into
Perkins. Originally when they put that there and everyone
was supposed to go in a the traffic light near what was
then the A & P, and they had a billboard sign there
that was probably 35 x 20 feet. That got wiped out in an
accident one time and said all turns for Perkins come to
the traffic light. That got wiped out and has never been
replaced. There is a sign about this big there and it says
no left turn. Everyday I see somebody turn in there.
Mr. Guenther: I have brought it up several times even before
because with the small sign it is placed in the wrong position,
it is to far off the road, and I brought it up to Chuck
McGroarty's attention several times. He is going to check
the original approvals to see what was required to put in
there. But I definitely think it is deficient. When you
are coming east on 46 for the left hand turn, to be able
to make a left hand turn into the Village Green which some
people still do, but at least there are two or three signs
up there that can catch people. There are just not enough
there and it causes the same kind of situation. You are
Mr. Casserly: Well that is not really why I came. The reason
that I came first was a letter that I received a couple
of weeks ago with my estimated tax bill. I would have been
here two weeks ago for the fireworks but I thought it was
just a Workshop Meeting not a Public Meeting. I talked to
Nick Parisi who I guess is the head of the Tax Department
here and I question him whether or not the 7.5% that it
talks about in here, reduction was going to be spread over
all taxpayers in the Town. I was assured by him that was
not the case. Myself with no sewer and no NYC water, my
taxes are going up, so I take exception sent to me from
the Mayor patting himself and all of you on the back telling
me how well they have done making the taxes go down for
me. He made some kind of statement I read in the newspaper
that he thought Colleen Labow would be here. Her expected
her to be here. I don't know if he expected me to be here
or not but I am sure that there are a lot of other people
in Town that you would not expect to be here. I have spoken
to a lot of people that are disheartened at a letter that
comes out that as far as I am concerned is a lie. I get
less services than most. I live on Lozier Rd. There are
no street lights, no gas, no water no sewer. I have garbage
collection once a week, it used to be twice a week here
in the Town. I am wondering if there is some hidden compensation
for me that I am not reading here in this letter maybe?
Or is this just toilet paper for me to use my well water
and flush into my septic system. Mr. Mayor, if you have
any comment I would like to know.
Mayor Licitra: I am sorry that letter confused you. A mistake
was made in the letter. We are trying to get the tax bills
out as soon as we could. It will be corrected and a letter
has been drafted already and be sent to the people that
it affected. We did make a mistake and as far as we are
concerned we will admit our mistake and go on from there.
Mr. Casserly: Okay, now for your second mistake in my eyes.
I have a letter here in my hand, I don't know if this has
been brought up at all or not recently but the Mayor on
June 13, 2002 decided to send a letter to the residents
of Flanders, Flanders Crossings and old Flanders. Not Mt.
Olive residents. Requests for citizen input, in short it
speaks that he has great pleasure in going to Flanders Park
and seeing that it is enjoyed by our citizens. He has also
sent a survey, wanted to know from people in Flanders if
they would like a shaded pavilion area, picnic tables, barbeque
grills, horseshoe pits. This has totally blown me away.
Are we not part of this? Can I not use that park over there?
Mayor Licitra: Yes, you could.
Mr. Casserly: It says, I'd like to ask that you spend five
minutes completing the attached survey. I would like to
plan the future of this park with your input. What about
the input of the people of Budd Lake? I am very upset about
this. It goes on to say that they won't have the money until
maybe 2003 until they could successfully negotiate with
possibly the developer. Will they have to build, do it three
or four times like they had to do the baseball field down
there? I cannot believe that you can send a letter in Mt.
Olive. You are the Mayor of Mt. Olive, you are not the Mayor
of Flanders. This I am very upset about.
Mayor Licitra: It is people like you that really polarize
Mr. Casserly: Polarize this Town. You send a letter to
half the people in the Town.
Mayor Licitra: Let me finish, okay. Our goal is to make
pocket parks in this Town.
Mr. Casserly: From what I understand, Lou Nelson Park is
to be closed and Tulip Park is to be closed too. That's
what I understand. That's the only two parks in Budd Lake.
Mayor Licitra: Did I let you speak? Now are you going to
let me speak? Our goal is to make pocket parks. That is
one I consider a pocket park for Flanders. We are already
working on one in Bennington Woods and Country Oaks. We
are working on the ones in Budd Lake and at that time I
was sending out to the residents that use that park as far
as on a daily basis and get their input on exactly what
they want because they are the ones using it the most of
the time. Listen, I can't do everything that you expect
me to do right. I am reaching out to the people. I got a
lot of good responses from their letters.
Mr. Casserly: From people in Flanders?
Mayor Licitra: From people all over Town.
Mr. Casserly: They are the only people that could respond
to it because it was not sent to anyone in Budd Lake.
Mayor Licitra: People all over Town, Okay? If you don't
like the job we are doing, I am reaching out.
Mr. Casserly: How? How could someone in Budd Lake respond
to this letter if it was not mailed to them?
Mayor Licitra: I don't think so. I think people
Mr. Casserly: You wrote it! It says it is to the people
of Flanders, Flanders Crossing and Old Flanders.
Mayor Licitra: They are the people that are using that
park on a regular basis. As will be the people in Bennington
Woods, as the people will be in Country Oaks, as the people
will be in different parts
I am the identifying the
different areas to build pocket parks. If the letter offends
you, then I am very very sorry. I am Mayor of Mt. Olive.
When I put up the pavilion or when we do something in Budd
Lake and I want to get the public input, I will get in touch
with the people in Budd Lake, I'll get in touch with the
people in Flanders. I am trying to do the best I could.
I am trying to get input from people.
Mr. Casserly: When you have a parade for the Town, the
people in Flanders come, right?
Mayor Licitra: We won't agree on this as far as I am concerned.
Mr. Casserly: No, we won't agree on this. You are correct.
We will not agree on this. You used the word polarization.
To me sending a letter to part of the people in the Municipality
Mayor Licitra: The people that use the park on a daily
Mr. Casserly: Now my next question is this, I heard that
Tulip Park is to be closed and Lou Nelson Park is to be
Mayor Licitra: That is the first I heard of it.
Mr. Casserly: That is the first you heard of it? The way
I understand it is that they are saying now that they do
not have money to maintain these parks and they are to be
Mayor Licitra: That is the first I hear of it. You are
telling me. I will check on it and let you know.
Mr. Casserly: Thank you.
Mrs. Miller: I have a question, Mayor. Did I hear you correctly
that you said that we are working on tot lot at Country
Oaks and Bennington Woods?
Mayor Licitra: No. I did not say a tot lot, I said we are
looking at a common area, but right now in Bennington we
are looking at a common area to put a Gazebo up over there
in conjunction with the people and a Gazebo.
Mrs. Miller: My question is a concern because I distinctly
remember those developers giving us money towards Turkey
Brook Park so that they did not have to provide these open
space accommodations to the residents and now we are going
to use tax payer's dollars to put parks in those that the
Mayor Licitra: I did not say we are using tax dollars Charlene.
Mrs. Miller: Well I would like to learn more about his
Mayor Licitra: Okay, we will. When we get involved in it
I will. But we have already done some research on it and
people want to feel camaraderie in their own neighborhoods.
They want to feel some neighborhood participation and we
are trying to give them a place to congregate, a place to
have their children congregate, they don't have to get into
a car to go someplace, that's the goal.
Mrs. Miller: I realize what you're saying, but I distinctly
remember the Bennington Woods people giving back money because
they did not want to park there. I am just a little confused
that now all of the sudden we've got this new interest that
was decided against just a few years ago at the Planning
Board level and now it seems like a few years later we are
redoing what the developer should have done in the first
place. I just have a problem with that.
Mr. Guenther: I sort of concur with what Charlene says.
My recollection is more about Country Oaks and there was
a specific contribution made in liea of them putting in
tot lots and other things. But there are common areas there
that are being maintained by their homeowners association.
When we do these developer's agreements, we have them dedicate
space, that is usually intended for some sort of use like
that. I kind of agree, why should we be using taxpayer's
money for that now?
Mayor Licitra: Bernie, I did not say we were using Tax
Payer's money, okay?
Mr. Guenther: If you are talking about pocket parks, I
believe there are neighborhoods, they happen to be in Budd
Lake, but if you wanted to create that kind of camaraderie
in certain neighborhoods, established neighborhoods that
have been around this Town for 40 years, I think those are
the neighborhoods you should first concentrate on.
Mayor Licitra: Bernie, I am not concentrating on any neighborhood
Bernie. I am just approaching each one of these different
Homeowner's associations and then I am going to put a plan
together. From there we are going to get people interested
either the Homeowner's Associations or maybe a developer
interested. You forget, that is where we got some of our
money for the playground equipment in Flanders Crossing.
A developer came forward and said he wanted to give us x
amount of dollars for every house that he put up, the one
in Flanders. That's where we got some of the money. I am
no going to deny it. I think it is a positive step I think
it is an excellent step for each one of the neighborhoods.
I think we are getting more and more people in that don't
want to get into their cars and go into different places
and some areas, like people in Bennington Woods, they already
have playground equipment and Tinc Road, they may not want
playground equipment over there. What they would like is
an area that they could possibly congregate, a flag pole,
a gazebo, maybe some benches and things like that. So each
neighborhood would probably want something different. It
is something that we took on to try and bring neighborhoods
together. Any place I go in the Township, they are telling
me that that's what they want. I may be wrong, and maybe
they are telling me the wrong things but I am going to tell
you something; you go down to Flanders Crossing at any time
and look at that tot lot, it is used all the time whether
it be from 9:00 am to 9:00 at night.
Mr. Greenbaum: I just wanted to comment on your comments
and let me start by saying the letter, with regard to the
taxes, I would not have sent. But the Mayor wrote the letter
and he wrote it the way he thought it should be written,
so be it. It's out there. I think the important thing here
is that we all worked very hard and those that were involved
in the process would agree; that we all worked very hard
to get taxes down as low as we thought we could leaving
that aside. The second letter with regard to Flanders Park,
I got the letter because I live in Flanders Crossing. I
never even gave it a thought until you raised the issue
here tonight. From sitting here and being involved for the
last couple of years I could tell you that the Mayor and
I am not always his greatest supporter, but I can tell you
that the Mayor is the Mayor for Mt. Olive. He is not just
the Mayor from Flanders. He has always looked out for the
best interest of the entire Town as best as he could. Perhaps
he made a mistake or he focused on an issue which he did
not think about how others might see this letter, but I
could tell you that my impression is that his actions were
designed to benefit the entire Town and I believe him when
he says that his impetus for sending the letter was that
he just figured that these are the people who are using
the park the most. That is my thought on the subject. Whether
it is right or wrong, it does not make any difference to
me in terms of, I believe that his impetus is as always
his impetus to benefit Mt. Olive as a whole.
Mr. Casserly: All right, Rob. I could give you some pom
poms and megaphone and cheer on the Mayor. Have you ever
been to Lou Nelson Park? Have you ever stepped foot in Tulip
Mr. Greenbaum: Yes I have. I play basketball at Lou Nelson
park with Charlie Russell and the rest of the Russells and
all of the over 39 crowd.
Mr. Casserly: Have you been to Tulip Park?
Mr. Greenbaum: I have never been to Tulip Park.
Mr. Casserly: Can you explain to me why we should be trying
to decide by 2003 were going to come up with more money
for Flanders Park that is a new park compared to two parks
here in Budd Lake that have not been upgraded, retrofitted
anything we have a dirt parking lot at Tulip park. Lou Nelson
Park, I have been living here 20 years I can' t believe
anything has ever been done.
Mr. Greenbaum: I can't tell you. Know one has come to me
and said we want to spend money or we want to do this. Other
than a survey going out saying what other needs are in this
park and perhaps the Mayor should have sent out a survey
with regard to Lou Nelson Park with regard saying what can
we do with regard to Lew Nelson Park and Tulip Park to improve
Mr. Casserly: Your going about it the wrong way. You are
going to a park that is the newest one instead of the one
that is the oldest one.
Mayor Licitra: First of all I did not say that we were
going to do this in 2003. I said if we could afford it we
are going to do this. Either that or we work out an arrangement
with the developer. The developer's do come up before the
Planning Board and they do say could I help you? Could I
give some money to the Recreation Department. Could I give
some money here, and we would do it that way. If you took
my intention as bidding Flanders against Budd Lake, then
I am very sorry that you took it that way. That's fine,
that is your opinion.
Mr. Casserly: Flanders Park which is the newest park in
the Municipality, correct?
Mayor Licitra: Yes.
Mr. Casserly: Why should that one be the next one up to
get some more upgrades?
Mayor Licitra: I did not say that was going to be the next
Mr. Casserly: Well, I did not get a letter saying by 2003
they are going to
Mayor Licitra: I thought we just agreed that I said that
if we had the money for 2003 and now you are telling me
we are doing it by 2003.
Mr. Casserly: What the letter says is hopefully we have
the money by 2003.
Mr. Greenbaum: Your point is well made. It is not the Mayor
who decides to spend the money.
Mr. Casserly: He is the one that signs the letter.
Mr. Greenbaum: But it comes to Council and I think you
have made your point with regard to the entirety of the
Town, the need for additional services in the other Parks
which are currently being used and I am sure it will be
a consideration of everyone that is sitting up here. I think
you made a very valid point.
Mr. Casserly: As far as the Mayor saying that he had never
heard anything about Lou Nelson Park or Tulip Park being
closed, I believe that it was in the newspaper as a budget
Mr. Greenbaum: No. I have never heard that. It was never
considered as a budget cut. I don't know specifically where
that may have come from. If you are going to cut additional
monies out of the Budget which was never really a consideration
that's the only place I could think of it and I don't think
there is a member on Council who would agree to close down
an existing park in Town. So I don't think there was ever
really a thought that was ever going to happen and certainly
I would never vote for something like that and don't think
Mr. Guenther: With all do respect to the reporter that
is sitting in the audience, we all know that we can't take
at face value what's reported if you are talking about the
Mt. Olive Chronicle. I would not use that as evidence that's
what is going to happen. One more point; for years we have
talked about the Simsbury Property, that was donated by
the original developer what is now the Oak Hill I &
II development. This at least goes back 14 or 15 years and
that's a property that is up in the upper reaches up there
of Budd Lake that should have some high priority. I just
want to bring it up in relation to what's coming out here
now. It is something we should all keep in the back of our
minds next year when the Budget is prepared. That's an area
that could start to be developed for that section of Town,
the way Flanders Park has been for Flanders.
Jim Lynch, Supervisor of Parks, Buildings and Grounds:
I think I can help clarify some of the points and some of
the displeasure with the letter that was mailed. The park
at Flanders Park, there was a target audience I believe.
You always try to target the heaviest users of the park.
It was not done in my opinion to close the Budd Lake residents
out. I am a resident of Budd Lake. I grew up in Budd Lake
and in Flanders with a move in the mid 80's. Both Budd Lake
and Flanders; there is a long history in this Town of polarization
between the two sides of Town. We have older parks in Town.
Flanders Park and Turkey Brook are our newest facilities,
I have begun to put together a plan to try and finish Flanders
Park would be prudent as the newest facility so we are not
in the process of trying to replace equipment. We finish
it within the first five to seven years of it's life span,
that equipment will age over a period of time where we won't
be in a deficient situation where we were before Flanders
Park was constructed. We were left with Lew Nelson Park,
Tulip Park came in, and Lyons Park were our primary facilities.
Lyons park is over 35 years old if I am correct. Lou Nelson
Park is well over 30 years old. We are working to update
those facilities. I am trying to budget for that currently.
I know those facilities have been somewhat neglected in
the past. Tulip Park we have a problem, we put in new equipment
prior to me coming on board with the Township. There are
people who are abusing that facility with quads and dirt
bikes. We are trying to police the facility, we are trying
to maintain it. I will be honest, we are fighting an uphill
battle right now. It is very hard to eliminate. Every time
we go in there and wipe out graffiti, replace some of the
barriers for the sand around some of the play stations,
within a week to two, it is ripped up and our police force
does a wonderful job, but they can't be expected to catch
people every time. If we look to complete Flanders Park,
Turkey Brook will be coming on line, we can work for maybe
the Simbury track, we could develop parks for both sides
of Town that could be used by everyone in Town. I think
that is what we are really trying to get at here. I know
I am trying to develop a plan that is going to have both
sides of one Township in mind. So, I am sorry if there were
hard feelings. I saw the letter that was sent, I know as
a resident of Budd Lake, I could say I understand where
you are coming from. We as a Township and I as a Supervisor
of Parks, Buildings, and Grounds are trying to get better
amenities for the people and for the citizens and still
work with the Administration with Council to do it in a
sensible way. I understand, give the Mayor and Council a
chance, we will make the Township work and we will get to
the older facilities on that side of Town.
Mr. Greenbaum: Personally, I rather see nothing else go
in Flanders Park. There is plenty of stuff in there, it
is plenty busy, there is no reason to put anything else
in there as far as I am concerned. At a minimum I would
like to see the basketball courts at Lou Nelson be fixed
up because it is ridiculous and it gets heavy play there.
I have been to Tulip Park I just did not know it was called
Tulip Park. Mr. Weiss and I ride our bikes through there
all the time. I thought I was excellent to have that jungle
gym in that facility. I would love to see that get fixed
up also. As far as I am concerned I would not spend another
dime at Flanders Park. So even thought the Mayor is looking
for suggestions it does not mean that is going to happen.
That is my position.
President Scapicchio: Anyone else?
Toni Ayers, 203 Sandshore Road Budd Lake: Lew Nelson was
on my list too but I can cross that off because I think
that has been adequately covered and I could only agree
I was offended when I found out too. Okay we have
been through that. Turkey Brook, I have been down there
a couple of times looking things over and went all the way
down to the pond which is being silted in case you did not
notice. My question is, I did not realize
original land with you looked from the road it was level,
you could look across those fields and it was practically
all level. When you get down in the back, there is like
a 30 or 40 foot drop off where that new dirt ends and original
land continues. Why was all that dirt brought in? Why couldn't
the topography remain the same, and sod it, and play ball.
Without the additional dirt we would not of had to have
a detention basin. So could somebody explain to me, I know
the engineer is not here tonight, why was all that dirt
brought in to build that up so high, to me it seems totally
Mayor Licitra: Toni, Turkey Brook Park was never flat.
Mrs. Ayers: Pretty level. When you looked from the road,
it went up a little bit and down, but know where near what
it is now. Down and back, I don't know if they are stopping
at that point. It is like a this cliff.
Mayor Licitra: It was never flat. It always went down towards
the pond. Charlene you used to walk that all the time.
Mrs. Miller: I have to agree with Toni, there is a huge
increase. There is a huge hill there and now we are putting
up retaining walls which I have asked for information regarding
these retaining walls and have not gotten it yet. I was
down at Meir's Pond recently too, the weekend before last.
It appears that they have really widened the road down there
and they have a big turn around because I believe that they
are talking their trucks down there and taking water from
Meyer's Pond and going up. I don't recall that ever being
an issue. They were always going to take water from the
cul-de-sac at Wyndam Point. So they are doing things without
our knowledge once again and it is not reflected in these
weekly reports that we have. I am upset too Toni.
Mrs. Ayers: But Charlene, that mountain. Why was all that
dirt brought in to build it up so high?
Mrs. Miller: Because they found rock and they did not want
Mrs. Ayers: No, they did not have to do anything except
prepare the land. Six inches, maybe a foot to put sod down.
You prepare the ground, you lay the sod and you play ball.
Not build a 30 foot mound of dirt. What's going to end with
that? I don't know whether they are going to continue gradually
Mrs. Miller: I think there are more fields beyond those
that we see now.
Mrs. Ayers: It gets worse and worse. The detention basin
would not have had to been there at all. That is going to
create problems and I commiserate with those people that
are concerned because I don't know, there better be a fence
around it because bad things can happen. 160 Sandshore Road,
I have been before this Council over the last ten years,
I don't know how many times. Last year we had Mr. Tom Potere
who was the Zoning Officer, I spoke to him in May, shortly
after he was hired 2001. We talked about that house at 160.
Those of you who are not familiar with it, it is a ransack
old piece of property that would not exist in other areas
of the Township because people would not put up with it,
but we are very complacent. Anyhow, but I am been complaining.
So I talked to Tom and he said that the owner was in the
process of going before the Board of Adjustment because
he needed to get permission and then he was going to get
a permit to raze the house. He had plans in for the new
house and everything. That was my last communication with
Tom, in July of 2001. So I said, gee, the house, nothing's
happening. I think I will call and see what is happening.
Well Tom is no longer employed by the Township but there
is an assistant Zoning Officer and I spoke with her and
she said he is now waiting to get a permit to raze the house.
The question is, how long does it take to issue a permit?
It's been going on for a long time and I think it's enough
already. I am ready to put a Match to it.
Mr. Guenther: That's on the Public record there Toni.
Mr. Rattner: Seriously Toni, when I was on the Board of
Health and that has been an issue and we are lucky; we did
knock down quite a few houses, maybe about eight or nine
years ago all in the Budd Lake area. What happens is, every
time they try taking action this guy comes up and says I
am going to do something and basically he takes out a permit
or goes to see somebody or threatens something and that
basically sets the clock again. I know I got frustrated
because a couple different times as the Chairman of the
Board of Health, I tried classifying it as a nuisance, but
once he goes and says I have a permit, a $40.00 application
to the Board of Adjustment or something, it basically stops
everything because you have to give them time. Then he keeps
doing it over and over again. We wanted to, at least my
idea was to condemn the house and we'll raze it just like
we did those six or seven others and put a lein on the property.
I don't know what has been happening lately and now we have
a turnover in the department. But that is part of the problem.
If you know how to operate the system. It's a problem. Not
very different; we have some commercial properties that
we have been fighting and going to court, we cannot believe
how much some of those property owners have spent fighting
Mr. Guenther: Both Ray and I were on the Board of Adjustment
when this came up and this goes back a good three or four
years. The last I knew and again now that we don't have
a Zoning Officer and we don't have anybody here tonight
to answer it but
Mrs. Spencer: We do have a new Zoning Officer who started
Mr. Guenther: Well, he's new he is not going to know the
history. The Board of Adjustment tried to get him to get
together with an adjoining property owner to bring the lot
size up. It still wasn't going to be conforming, but it
was going to be more conforming if you understand what I
mean. He did have plans to build something nice. Now what
has happened in the two and a half years that I have been
on the Board of Adjustment, I don't know. But that was the
last I heard unless Ray knows something else beyond that
since I think you served on it before the time that I was
Mr. Perkins: Bernie, your recollection is 100% correct.
That was the standard, the gentlman has tried he has gone
out. I do know that this year we did pass a resolution up
here that talks about building permits. When you take out
a building permit now there is a time frame which hopefully
will go a little more to giving some credence and some bite
to your Zoning Officer, now when you see somebody undertake
some work, instead of seeing it last forever, it only has
a two year time limit on it and then we can take some action
Mrs. Ayers: This guy, he can't get a building permit until
he gets a permit to raze the house. I wish somebody
could check into that and see if he even has applied for
President Scapicchio: Cindy could you possibly make this
a priority for the new Zoning Officer and find out.
Mrs. Spencer: Could you give me the gentleman's name?
Mrs. Ayers: I don't know his name, the address is 160 Sandshore
Road in Budd Lake and this is an ongoing problem for many
years. There is an oil tank that he did take out of the
ground, it's sitting there. I think it is in the ground.
There was some work going on. Speaking of that brings me
to my next point, JJF Inc. that developer down in Jennies
Lane. I don't understand, the people down there complain
that he did in fact take oil tanks out of the ground without
permits. Then I read
Mr. Guenther: We have some correspondence here that will
clarify things. This is from the DEP. I am sorry if I am
boring everybody else, but since it has come up, I think
we should set the record straight. This is Thomas however
you pronounce his last name from the DEP. On July 10, 2002
I conducted a site inspection. The inspection was prompted
by a complaint received by the DEP on April 19, 2002. Investigation
of the complaint consisted of an interview with you addressing
Mr. Wilpert. Mr. Rocco was the developer and Mrs. Uhrmann
who was the complainant. Individual inspection of Number
869 in an undeveloped lot on Jennies Lane. The complaint
centers around two tanks, which all parties concerned agree
have been disposed of. The involved parties, Mrs. Uhrmann
and Mr. Rocco also confirmed the former location of the
tanks. This agreement appears to center on whether the one
tank was buried or was located on the ground behind 8 Jennies
Lane. During the site inspection I know that no evidence
of oil contamination or of any tank excavation. Mrs. Uhrmann
also identified another tank that was behind Number 6 Jennies
Lane. I investigated this tank and found it to be approximately
a 500 gallon circular tank with a galvanized interior braced
bottom on one end and an the other end has a missing top
lid. Tank has interior support ring which would support
the lid and has some white residue adhering to the inner
surface. The tank is heavily rusted and has rivets holding
sections of it together. The tank is probably from the beginning
of the Century. It was probably used for feed or fertilizer
storage. The Department of Environmental Protection only
becomes involved incases where there has been a reportable
discharge. The investigation conducted on Jennies Lane did
not result in any indication that there has been a discharge
and therefore the department will not be pursuing this investigation.
During the investigation I was also informed that a tape
meaning a video tape had been sent to the department and
I have been informed that the department does not have that
tape. Disagreement in this case also centers on disposal
of the tanks, I informed all parties that these issues are
with in the purview of Township Officals. Questions can
be directed to me at this telephone number. So as far as
the DEP is concerned, they found no evidence and the have
closed the case.
Mrs. Ayers: What does the Township do about the tax? I
just paid an enormous amount of money. I had an oil tank
in the ground and I had a gasoline tank in the ground an
I had to have the person from the insurance company, Fred
Detoro was there, I had the contractor and the people who
come and take the sludge out of the tanks, plus it cost
me $60.00 for a permit.
Mr. Guenther: Toni, the point here is that there is disagreement,
they found no evidence and the tank that was there is the
one that was used for feed storage. Supposedly this video
tape as Mrs. Uhrmann who had been here at the time said
that she had taped the removal of the tank. Both Cynthia
Spencer and I asked her for that tape and she said she sent
it to the DEP and this was the DEP's response, so what are
we to do?
Mrs. Ayers: With the way the article was written, first
they said it was a water tank and then Chuck McGroarty went
out and looked at it and he thought it saw residue from
spots where there were possibly oil tanks and oil residue.
I said what is going on here. Here I just got through paying
an enormous amount of money and this guy gets away with
it. So they apparently found no oil.
Mr. Greenbaum: You can't believe everything you read.
Mrs. Ayers: That's true. Okay, and speaking of the Fire
Marshall, that is a snazzy red vehicle he has. Did we ever
find out who authorized the purchased of that vehicle? Remember
that was up for discussion a few weeks ago?
President Scapicchio: We have a memo here somewhere explaining
to us what transpired. Does anybody have a copy of that?
We will try to locate that and get you a copy. Cynthia,
maybe you could explain because you wrote this memo I think,
so maybe you can help us out a little?
Mrs. Ayers: It was the same kind of discussion a few weeks
ago when I was here and it was the same thing. Nobody knew
who authorized the purchase of this vehicle.
President Scapicchio: We had a detailed analysis from Cynthia.
Mrs. Spencer: Essentially the Fire Marshall I guess was
offered by Flanders Fire Department that they would put
in a purchase order to take on this vehicle. He had ordered
the vehicle originally when his vehicle was totaled in the
accident and when he was notified that the vehicle was in
while we had agreement from the Council as to a letter of
intent to purchase a new vehicle, we did not have an approved
capital budget so he could not pay for the vehicle. It is
my understanding that Warnock who provided the vehicle took
the purchase order as a hold mechanism and provided that
vehicle with the understanding that when the capital budget
was approved, they would reissue a purchase order to the
Township and at that time the Township would purchase the
vehicle at the old price.
Mrs. Ayers: And if nothing was approved, then what?
Mayor Licitra: The man needs a vehicle to do his job.
Mrs. Ayers: He was using a car for a while, you know, you
don't need a fancy little truck.
Mayor Licitra: He needs a 4 wheel vehicle to get off terrain
on his job.
Mr. Greenbaum: Toni, there was never a question that vehicle
was going to be purchased by the Township for him. It was
just a question of getting the capital Ordinance approved
as far as I was concerned and I think that Warnock took
the risk the ultimately it wasn't going to be purchased.
Mrs. Ayers: Okay, thank you.
President Scapicchio: Thank you Toni. Anybody else?
Richard Bonte, Budd Lake: I kind of forgot why I have not
been here for long, now I know. First of all I don't think
anymore letters should go out from the Mayor's Office with
tax payer dollars unless we get the facts straight. Obviously
a tax increase is a tax increase. You can't make it sound
like something else when it is an increase. Water and sewer
as everybody should know by now is a separate utility and
to imply that because I am lowering water and sewer rates
and therefore when I raise your taxes it all comes out equal
is evasive at best. There should be no co-mingling of those
funds and no suggestion that one negates the other. On the
subject of water and sewer I understand that one of the
reasons why we have water restrictions in Town is because
of the inability of our wells and distribution system to
meet the demand. I seriously question why we are reducing
water rates if we need to be spending some money to improve
our water distribution and supply. I think we should take
a hard look at how this utility deduction was arrived at.
If we are asking our residents to not be able to wash their
cars and watering their lawns, etc, because we can't supply
them with the commodity that they need, lets stop playing
games on trying to keep 75 % of the Taxpayer's expenditure
to the Town neutral when the issue here is two separate
entities. Secondly I find it extremely offensive that the
Mayor would send a letter to a portion of the Town asking
them what they would like done with a park in their section
of Town when all of the residents in the Town will be asked
to reach in their pockets to pay for anything that might
be done for that one section of Town. If we want to polarize
our community, that is the way to do it. Instead we should
go out with a park wide plan for the Town to all residents
or send no letters out at all, but you don't send a letter
out from the Mayor of a Township and only go to a portion
of that Township. I feel that I am qualified to speak regarding
this particular park because in 1993 our Mayor was one of
seven Councilmen who voted to give that land away to the
Mt. Olive Childcare Center. Myself and another Budd Lake
resident were part of a committee of five that worked to
collect over 1,000 signatures to overturn that ordinance
so that there is a park in Flanders Crossing. So we in Budd
Lake are concerned about what goes on anywhere in the confines
of this Township and will do something to support the residents
of Flanders if we feel it is in the Community's interest.
Now regarding development of this Township and what the
Council could do, and what the Planning Board can do. First
of all I am sure you are all aware of by now of the ruling
that Judge Stanton made regarding Crown Towers and some
of what I consider to be very important decisions and we
are part of that ruling. First of all it was unknown to
me but it is now very clear to me that we have a requirement
in our Township Ordinance that when a developer comes in,
every lot that he is asking for approvement for should be
tested for waste water disposal, commonly referred to as
a perk test. I would like to know why we are not requiring
We don't have to waive it. If we are serious about good
development in Town and maybe slowing down development in
Town, lets utilize the existing code that we have. The first
recommendation is that the Planning Board be reminded of
this fact, that there is a Township ordinance that requires
this and that we would like it upheld. Secondly, Judge Stanton
indicated that the Planning Board can and I don't think
they will unless this body passes an ordinance to require
that any request that any developer have for waivers exceptions,
approvals, whatever from the DEP, be taken care of first
before he even comes to this Township Planning Board. Judge
Stanton ruled that you can do that. You don't have to go
through what we went through for two years and issue a ruling
at the end that we approved this based upon you get your
other approvals. We should not
Mr. Bonte (cont'd): have to sit here and entertain a developer
who has a complex scheme of wetlands, buffer averaging or
exceptions to wetlands or whatever unless the State has
already acted on them or whether or not they are appropriate.
Let's get these people out of here until they've done the
work they need to do anyway.
President Scapicchio: If we required them to get DEP approval
How far along is the design for that development.
The question I have is, it would that then lock us into
what the DEP approved?
Mr. Bonte: Of course not. He has to meet the local land
use requirement. The DEP is going to look at it and they
are going to say, well you can do this, this, and this.
I think what is going to happen in most of these cases especially
with the lands that are remaining in this Town, is that
25% to 50% of the land that he thinks he is going to be
able to build on, the DEP is going to tell him he can't
even touch, so he is not going to be able to come in here.
In fact what happens now is the reverse. He comes in here
to use Crown Towers as an example, he gets 117 lots approved,
then he goes down to DEP, and their attitude is people from
Town are happy with this. They don't really care at that
point. It needs to work the other way. I know the Planning
Board is very busy and they don't like all these special
meetings. Well lets make the developer do the work he is
supposed to do ahead of time before he even comes in here.
So I think we need to look at adopting an Ordinance which
it appears from what I heard in court would stand up to
a developer's Challenge.
President Scapicchio: John, is that done in any other municipalities
that you are aware of?
Mr. Dorsey: In the first place the Ordinance already requires
as far as I am concerned that it was my argument in court
that it requires satisfactory peculation test on every lot.
The ordinance in a rather general sense requires every lot
to be "usable." Usable of course means that it
is a lot which can be built upon and that obviously involves
well and sewer. Secondly in many towns there is a considerable
debate as to whether or not you impost the requirement of
receiving all DEP approvals prior to the Planning Board
granting any approval. Or the Planning for instance considering
preliminary approval. I don't think there is any reason
not to have such a requirement, indeed in the Fire Tower
case, of course the one thing Rich has not said, the Planning
approved Fire Tower, so lets not forget that point while
you are chastising certain things, they never approved it
but the plan was based upon Fire Tower achieving a Wetland
buffer averaging plan approval from the DEP that probably
involved 30 lots and might have been crucial in terms of
whether or not those rocks could have provided a building
envelope within. I don't think there is any reason why any
developer cannot be required to first get those approvals.
It would seem preferable to then letting someone come and
getting an approval making it subject to those various State
approvals being obtained and then only finding out for one
reason or another the State approvals cannot be obtained
in the same fashion that the plan had been submitted to
the Planning Board.
Mr. Greenbaum: I am not sure everything that Rich said
is totally accurate. I think the substance of what he is
saying is protecting Mt. Olive and whatever we can do to
protect Mt. Olive should be done. If we can hold up all
development until after all DEP approvals have been received
then we should do it. I think the bottom line is that we
all learned a lot through the Crown Tower, through Judge
Stanton's decision, if Judge Stanton was correct. I am not
sure ultimately that the appellate division faced with a
different set of facts.
Mr. Dorsey: I am sorry Rob, Judge Stanton learned it in
the law and knowledgeable about the facts in that case on
Mr. Greenbaum: What I am saying is a blanket protection
factually; different scenario then Crown Towers. Crown Towers
dealt with DEP approvals on massive amounts of lots on issues
involving wastewater and buffer averaging but there are
other DEP approvals and other county approvals that are
required which are not such a significant import to the
application. I am not sure that ultimately if an application
is denied based upon some of the other factors that Judge
Stanton would have come down the same way. So I think that
factually while I think it is a great thing to have if we
could have it, I am not sure that all applications would
fit under this one umbrella that Mr. Bonte would like to
have. If it could, great, I agree with you 100%.
Mr. Bonte: Thirdly, and as many of you know one of my issues
in this two year adventure that we had was the fact that
I do not believe that the distension basins that were designed
for Crown Towers would meet a 100 year storm and that is
a requirement of State law. I specifically asked Judge Stanton
whether or not they could be required to meet local rainfall
data if it was available. His answer was, if the data was
available the Township could consider making that a requirement.
Within the State law you have the ability to do this. It
says if local rainfall data is available it may be used.
Let's put it in our Town Ordinance. Why use data from a
site in Trenton, NJ, that historically has 24 hour storms,
half of what we have here.
Mrs. Miller: I would like to add to that too Rich for the
audience that Judge Stanton also said that for a period
of time that, that data has been collected and you certainly
do have over 20 years of data collecting and you have been
doing it systematically over the years.
Mr. Bonte: I am not necessarily saying that the data that
I have collected for 32 years in Town is the data to be
used. There is published data by both national weather service
and other certifiable meteorologists that more accurately
represent rainfall in the highlands region. This is not
some leftfield horse I am trying to champion. We are talking
about avoiding a catastrophe for example what happened in
Sparta two years ago. There are bridges up there that are
still not opened. Let's not miss an opportunity to legally
control development and if it is going to happen make sure
it is right. I am not saying that we become "antidevelopment",
but we need to use every tool that is already afforded to
us. To make sure that what does happen, happens properly.
Mr. Greenbaum: I don't like to think of it as controlling
development; I like to think of it as protecting the residents
of Mt. Olive.
Mr. Bonte: And not only Mt. Olive, for example improperly
storm water facilities can affect more than the residents
of Mount Olive. Thank you for your time.
Dave Jones, Route 46 Budd Lake: Just out of curiosity,
is there any attempt by the current Administration to control
expenses and finish one park before making any improvements
on any others?
Mayor Licitra: Yes
Mr. Jones: Could you explain?
Mayor Licitra: In what instance
Mr. Jones: It just kills me that Turkey Brook Park went
$1.5 million over budget so far and that you are planning
on trying to make improvements to another park when you
have not even finished this one huge project that there
seems no end in site to and expenses that is going to run
even further over budget.
Mayor Licitra: I think I am trying to satisfy the people
in the Township and the quality of life and if I have to
do that by planning more than one thing at a time, it's
a plan and it's a vision and at least it is something more
than what was done before in this Township.
Mr. Jones: Did you ever think of surveying the whole Township
on whether we need anymore pocket pocks.
Mayor Licitra: I surveyed and I intend to survey each portion
of the Township and find out what their needs are as far
as the pocket parks. If you don't plan or you don't get
public input for it, it won't work. You have to have public
support and input and that is what the plan of this Administration
Mr. Jones: We have seen a lot of public support tonight
for you plans. Thank you.
President Scapicchio: Anyone else from the Public? Seeing
none, we will close the Public Portion and this brings us
to final Council Comments.
Mrs. Miller: I would like to expand on Mr. Bonte's suggestions
which I think are very good suggestions, I would like to
use Country Oaks as an example. We allowed the developer
to donate money to Turkey Brook, probably about a quarter
of what it would have cost them to put in a swimming pool
and a community house such as the people in Flanders Crossing
have and yet everybody was real excited about that and now
I find it ironic that these people have to meet in our Municipal
Building because they don't have a community center or the
senior citizens center and they met I think for a few years
in the Budd Lake Firehouse. The Planning Board should be
requiring that a community center and pool facilities or
tot lots should be a requirement of any development that
has a substantial number of houses. I think that is one
way to avoid the problems that we are now facing where all
of these communities want to have these things and don't
and they are coming to our Mayor and other people requesting
these things when our Planning Board allowed it to happen
in the first place.
President Scapicchio: Mayor I read this letter of June
15th that you sent to a Linwood Avenue resident about the
one way and the ordinance. In here you suggested at the
Public Meeting on October 9, 2001 and again on November
20, 2001, the Council heard public comment on the purposed
ordinance and made a decision not to adopt that ordinance
as presented and you tell this resident that by copy of
this letter you are now asking me to follow this up. Steve
did some checking and the minutes would reflect that at
those meetings, there were several residents who brought
up several different issues and it was handed back to the
Administration to research the issues that were brought
forth at those public meetings and to come back with a recommendation
and we have not heard anything since that. If you would
like a copy of those minutes, Steve has them available
Mayor Licitra: Yes I would, thank you.
President Scapicchio: So it was really put back in the
Administration's hands who failed to get back to the Council.
Mayor Licitra: A letter wasn't intended to admonish the
Council and say the Council hasn't done their job. The letter
was just to show
President Scapicchio: Well that is exactly what this letter
Mayor Licitra: It was my understanding that at that point
I will get the minutes and I will find out and I
will check on that but the idea was to bring it back to
you people where it belonged over here, but if you needed
information from us we will gladly get information for you.
President Scapicchio: You were present at that meeting
when it was sent back to you during that public hearing
based on some input from the public when we discussed this
ordinance at that Public Hearing and the Administration
failed to get back. I actually do resent the fact that you
are the first one to take credit but you are also the first
one to pass off blame. I resented this letter. On behalf
of myself and Council, because we did not fail on our responsibility.
We diligently listened to the Public Comment asked you through
you for the Police Department to review those comments and
come back with another suggestion for us. That suggestion
could have in fact been the same way that the Ordinance
was written originally.
Mayor Licitra: Dave, if that is the case, we will get you
the information. I was told that the information was given
to you and thus the putting it back to you and having a
resident get in touch with you and we will check it out
and I'll get back to you.
Mr. Guenther: I now remember the meeting. There was a proposal,
and it was the Police Department who made the suggestion,
and there was significant resident opposition from people
in that area regarding the different, there were various
proposals made about different one ways. In one direction,
the other direction certain hours, there were restricting
hours. We finally got to the point where we said wait a
minute, there is to much diversified opinions here. We have
to go back and get some more facts to try to settle this
to come up with a plan that is a little bit more acceptable
Mr. Rattner: I think the big issue which I am not sure
if it was tabled or it was voted down was the fact the Council
was not going to arbitrarily change the recommendations
of a trained safety officer. That comment did come up, that
we were not going to sit here and just because we felt something
made more sense until they came back and said yes, it would
fit or this is the way it should be done. We had about three
or four meetings on it and the last one the officer was
not at the meeting, and I can understand, he made the first
three or four. I think what really happened was there was
a lot of open issues and concerns that we had with signage,
with having the different times how people would know when
they could come down and when they couldn't. We have to
go back I think the recommendation was also that the Administration
work with the School Board to come up with a better workable
plan because that is where the proposal originally came
from at least based on our minutes.
President Scapicchio: Thanks Steve. We have an executive
session on Open Space Issues.
Mr. Guenther made a motion to go into executive session
and Mr. Perkins seconded that motion. Executive session
opened 9:59 pm immediately followed by the Public Meeting
reconvened and Adjourned at 10:25 pm.
I, LISA M LASHWAY, Township Clerk of the Township of Mount
Olive do hereby certify that the foregoing Minutes is a
true and correct copy of the Minutes approved at a legally
convened meeting of the Mount Olive Township Council duly
held on October 29, 2002.
LISA M. LASHWAY
Mount Olive Township Clerk